Hi. Speaking as an individual, I'd like to make an explicit call for members of the IETF community not involved in the PANA working group to review draft-ietf-pana-framework. Please speak up if you have done such a review or attempted such a review and been unsuccessful. Let us know what you think PANA is intended to be useful for and whether you think it is actually useful. My strong hunch is that we've chartered work for some reason, and now that the working group is nearing the end of its charter, we still don't understand why we want this thing we've built and whether it's a good idea. People aren't screaming not so much because they are happy with results but because no one actually understands PANA. I understand that there's a strong presumption that once chartered, work is useful. I'd like to challenge this presumption enough to get people to actually read the document. If people not involved in the effort sit down, read the document and understand what it's all about, my concern is satisfied. But if enough people try to read the document, try to understand and fail, we're not done yet. We certainly cannot have consensus to publish something we've tried and failed to understand. It's not just me. I've been trying to find people outside of PANA who claim to understand the effort and what it's good for and why link-layer solutions are not better. When the first discussion of PANA hit the IESG, I asked other IESG members why PANA was a good idea and what problem it solved. "Don't go there," was the advice I got from the responsible AD. At that time (a year and a half ago) there was no one on the IESG who claimed to understand PANA or to think it was a good idea. I'm fairly sure that with the possible exception of Jari (who is a technical advisor to PANA), that's still true. The security community has been trying to understand PANA. I've sent multiple security reviewers at the PANA document.s They always come back fundamentally confused about what PANA is trying to do or about whether it is a good idea. They end up focusing on some detail or another and asking for some minor part of the system to be fixed. But I don't get the impression from the reviews they understand the overall picture; explicit discussion of this also indicates that they are not confident in their understanding nor do they know whether it is a good idea. We keep running back over the same ground, still confused and still trying to muddle through to no real effect. I've tried to understand it myself. I tried to understand in the BOF. It was very clear to me leaving the original PANA BOF that something was very confused. Every year or so since I've tried to go back and figure out what I missed. Eventually though I've started wondering whether the problem wasn't me, but was an actual lack of clarity. So, folks can you please help us all out. Especially if the internet area is not your primary focus, especially if you've never heard of PANA before, take a look at the framework document and all their other documents. Do you get it? Is it a good idea? Thanks for your time. P.S. Again, this is me speaking as an individual. At this late stage, it would be entirely inappropriate for me to take actions as an AD claiming that we didn't understand a problem without a strong community consensus. _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf