Folks, not to be a stick-in-the-mud, but one of the things that has made the RFC Editor process attractive for authors is that it is possible to design and use the right format for a particular presentation. Sometimes that means "interesting" page layouts and indentations. Sometimes it means cross-references within a document to, e.g., numbered paragraphs or list elements within a section (and those are different, at least in the ways that the RFC Editor has been willing to format them in the past). Sometimes it means reference forms that are consistent with library or scholarly standards for the materials being referenced, rather than forms that are optimized for RFC-style references. "Attractive for authors" _is_ important: while it is all very well to say that the goal is the end user (which the authors would typically agree with), if we make things unpleasant or uncomfortable enough for the authors --who are, by and large, volunteers-- we will lose some of them. That isn't healthy for the IETF either. It is possible to do any of the things I've mentioned above in the xml2rfc context. However, sometimes it requires external formatting followed by the use of <artwork> elements, which can defeat the whole purpose of content-oriented markup. Other times it requires tricking the processor into doing the right thing by use of <annotation> elements or clever and undocumented uses of <seriesInfo> and/or <format> elements. These things are not often necessary. But they are, I would suggest, necessary as often (or more so) than fancy graphics are. Of the I-Ds and RFCs I have out there, some have been developed and edited by working directly on the ASCII text. At least two or three were developed in Word and then (painfully) converted. One was initially developed, long ago, in SGML (!) markup but then forced into ASCII text and continued that way. For the last year or three, I've been using XML2RFC almost exclusively, but I have had to make a few compromises that the RFC Editor ultimately had to straighten out in nroff or that made the relevant documents much harder to read and understand (as one example, find the document-within-a-document examples of ISDs in draft-klensin-newtrk-sample-isd-00.txt). In addition, for I-Ds at least, making the XML generally available raises some of the "IPR rights reserved for the author except insofar as the IETF needs them for standards-related work" issues raised on the IPR list -- where copyrights are concerned, presentation formats are important. (Issues about whether those rights are important and what they are belong on another list.) So, while I'm generally in favor of the "submit XML" and "keep XML" trends and discussions, I think we need to be quite careful that XML2RFC and its format conventions and limitations don't become a Procrustean bed into which authors and documents either need to fit or to find somewhere to do work besides the IETF. john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf