On 10/10/22 11:59 AM, Richard Barnes
wrote:
On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 2:49 AM Leif Johansson <leifj@xxxxxx> wrote:
>
> 2 okt. 2022 kl. 20:13 skrev Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
>
> On this aspect...
>
>> On 02/10/2022 10:12, Adam Roach wrote:
>> Oh, definitely. I could name a few additional episodes from my own recollection, but those aren't really what I'm referencing in my previous message. What I'm seeing -- and this is admittedly subjective because I have neither the time nor energy to quantify it -- is an increase in /frequency/ of such events, and an increase in the number of specific individuals who choose to participate in such a fashion as a matter of course, rather than simply when passions run high. To be clear, it's not good in either case; but it's the /routine/ toxicity that makes working here such a uniquely unpleasant experience nowadays.
>
> I wonder if there's any less subjective metric that could be
> applied to mailing list archives?
>
> Reason to ask: I don't share Adam's perception that toxic
> posts on IETF lists are more frequent these days - if I had
> to guess I'd say those, and other rudenesses, are notably
> less frequent compared to a decade or two ago.
>
> I wonder if there's a correlation between such perceptions
> and the extent to which people partake in the usual online
> social networks that are reputedly quite toxic? I don't have
> accounts on any of those myself but wouldn't be surprised if
> perceptions of email traffic were affected by postings by the
> same folk, or different folk on similar topics, seen in other
> fora.
I agree.
To the degree that's the case (which I'm not sure of), it shouldn't be read as exculpatory of the IETF list. It wouldn't be surprising if it were due to being more aware of "leading indicators of toxicity" based on having seen them elsewhere. For example, when someone denies that racism exists (e.g., [1]), it's often not because this is their sincerely held belief, but because challenges to racism are predicated on its existence, and the speaker wishes these challenges would stop.
--RLB
Wow! Thomas Sowell is a brilliant economist and the author of over 45 books.
He's also black. And here we have Richard Barnes, a person of pallor, explaining
what the sincerely held beliefs of this black man really are and that what he really
wants are for challenges to racism to stop (not for racism to stop, just the
challenges to it). This is outrageous!
Richard would have us believe that a well-educated black man can't actually
think a certain way and there must be some subterfuge or misdirection. What
a patronizing attitude!
The end of Sowell's quote concerns "people who get a sense of superiority by
denouncing others as 'racists.'" I think there are, unfortunately, quite a few people
like that in the IETF.
Dan.
-- "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -- Marcus Aurelius
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