On Mon, Jul 27, 2020 at 11:41 AM Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Il 27/07/2020 18:08 Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@xxxxxxxxx> ha scritto:
>
> > On 27 Jul 2020, at 15:50, Salz, Rich <rsalz=40akamai.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > unless the IETF comes to consensus to not use language that some find problematic.
>
> This is empowering “some” to compel everyone to avoid what they consider problematic. As an example, I know I’m an outsider in the US, but to me words like “folks” and “y’all” in US English (no connection to German or Dutch origins) express the contempt that intellectual elites feel towards less educated people. The latter term is specifically a fake southern accent, while the former is always associated with a lack of education. Consider terms like “folksy” and “folk wisdom”.
Unfortunately, all these nuances are generally lost to non-native English speakers, who do not know the context behind these terms and how they could ever be offensive. Actually, given some of the comments earlier in the thread, even native English speakers of a dialect other than American English may miss these implications.
[MB] That nuance is also lost on me as a 50+ year old native English speaker whose lived in a variety of regions in the US (and Newfoundland). I use the term "folks" with the same meaning as the German word "volk". And, y'all is just how we abbreviate "you all" in the more Southern parts of the US. Often further North, the term "you guys" is used. And, actually when I use "You people" that's often in a much more negative context. I have no idea where Yoav got his interpretation of these terms unless, like I said, he derived it from American TV or movies with stereotypes of folks from those regions. [/MB]
So can I point out that being easily offended by such complex nuances, or requiring all participants to master English so well that they can avoid using any term inappropriately, is also quite exclusionary? There is a difference between terms that are specifically connected to discrimination (such as "slave") and pretty general terms that could be construed as offensive only in some secondary meanings and specific contexts (such as "grandfather", to mention another example given here).
Also, the more the community becomes picky and aggressive on the use of "appropriate" English words, and the more the non-native speakers (and the newcomers) will be scared of opening their mouths. It is already quite scary today, given how openly aggressive the reactions are sometimes.
[MB] I totally agree per my comment that if people are interpreting my use of these terms that way, that might partly explain why I find IETF to be a pretty hostile place to get work done. [/MB]
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Vittorio Bertola | Head of Policy & Innovation, Open-Xchange
vittorio.bertola@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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