Re: Proposal to deprecated `fedpkg local`

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Vít Ondruch <vondruch@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:

> Dne 28. 01. 21 v 15:51 Robbie Harwood napsal(a):
>> Vít Ondruch <vondruch@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>>
>>> Thx everybody for their responses and sorry for such controversial
>>> topic. I am not going to propose this upstream after all. However I
>>> have few takeaways:
>>>
>>> 1) I see responses of Fedora long timers and I understand that you
>>> have polished workflows. But I really think that for newcomers, mock
>>> should be the preferred way. I'd love to see documentation adjusted
>>> to prefer mock everywhere.
>>>
>>> 2) I would really love you to stop using VMs for your build/testing.
>>> With exception of Kernel and Kernel related issues, the argument of
>>> "mock being slow" can't stand. Every VM will be more resources
>>> hungry then mock, slowing every your task.
>>>
>>> 3) The argument of mock being slow can't stand, because in one of my
>>> examples I posted elsewhere in this thread, I picked up the simplest
>>> package I could and the build took 7 seconds. This is certainly not
>>> slow, in this time you can't even switch to your email client to
>>> check your emails.
>>
>> So far on this thread, you've asked feedback on a proposal, and then
>> when provided with feedback you didn't like, repeatedly argued with
>> our comments and told us we're wrong.  This is not a good way to
>> engage with feedback.
>
>
> I have provided the numbers here:
>
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/message/4RSZSVMHLIGEYIHLC6NOH3BEWWFQ7JQY/
>
> where I tried to point out that I don't perceive build of trivial 
> package done in 7s to be slow. For nontrivial package the mock overhead 
> is negligible. Nobody replied (in constructive way). On various places, 
> I have suggested to use "--no-clean" option for repeated builds. But in 
> the whole thread, there was no confirmation that anyone would use it.
>
> Yet I am repetitively told that mock is slow, you repeat it down bellow 
> once again without any evidence. Your only argument to this discussion 
> is that mock is slow, because you believe so and other people have said 
> so. I would really appreciate if I was given some specific 
> counterargument supported by numbers.

I believe you are missing my point.  Your original email reads:

    I wonder, what would be the sentiment if I proposed to deprecated
    the `fedpkg local` command. I don't think it should be used. Mock
    should be the preferred way. Would there be anybody really missing
    this functionality?

This is a *request for input*.  You explicitly mention wanting to know
"sentiment" [1].  I didn't reply because I wanted to complain or argue; I
replied to express what my feelings are.  Don't ever tell someone that
their feelings are wrong.

You want to have a technical argument, fine.  But an email initiating
that looks very different.  Here's an example:

    `fedpkg local` is a burden to maintain because [insert reasons].  I
    would like to have everyone using mock instead.  What improvements
    do we need to make in order for your workflow to move off `fedpkg
    local`?

This requests concrete data - actionable points, even.  It states
intentions clearly, and a request for details and data isn't out of
scope.

Thanks,
--Robbie

1: Here's Merriam-Webster on that:
   https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentiment - note that
   *every single definition* is subjective and/or involves emotion.

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