On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 11:08 AM Aleksandar Kurtakov <akurtako@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 5:54 PM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel <devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> On 10.09.2020 16:10, Aleksandar Kurtakov wrote: >> > Flatpak is way better suited for our use case and in addition gives us >> > access to a way bigger install base. >> >> Flathub is a third-party repository and not related to Fedora at all. >> >> >> > And the involvement on Java packaging in Fedora is so low that we literally have to maintain whole other stacks including jetty, lucene and etc. - not feasible work in any way. >> >> Fedora Modularity team destroyed the entire Java stack in Fedora after >> moving ant/maven to modules. > > > As I've been involved in ant/maven packaging for a decade or so I would dare to say that this is not the truth. It just exposed the fact that less and less people were actively maintaining things as most of the people that used to do it moved on to other things and the number of new people that joined is quite low. So the burden on people left is bigger and bigger. I am a relative newcomer to RPM packaging. I became a packager because I was a long-time Fedora user, and wanted to distribute my Java packages in Fedora. I began packaging, and slowly began taking over a few related packages, until the entire stack fell out from under me because of modularity. Had it been kept alive non-modular, I'd have been able to encourage others to participate (I had already recruited one other from $dayjob to help comaintain Java packages and was in the process of recruiting more when modularity became a thing), and I would have been able to participate more and more. However, because everything fell apart, I was not able to do that. So, from my perspective, it did both: it exposed that less and less people were actively maintaining things *and* it destroyed the entire Java stack by making it *harder* for newcomers like me to actively maintain things that were becoming out of date. As an Apache Software Foundation member, I really appreciate their "community first" mindset. One of their driving principles is that having a good community enables code to get better... prioritizing code or technologies does not necessary enable community. I feel like Fedora's modularity efforts, while good intentioned, from a technology perspectve, were a net negative in terms of community because it raised the bar to participation and prioritized a design over the effects on the community. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I also see the modular versions of Maven/Ant as being worthless (to me). I used to use the non-modular Maven RPM for my development, but now that it is modular only, I find that it's actually better to just download the binaries directly from Apache, because the experience is better than using modules. They are more up-to-date, break less often, and it requires me to do fewer steps to keep up-to-date. The convenience of using the stable RPM in non-modular Fedora is now gone for me, as soon as it became a module. I wish I could say that modularity didn't have a negative impact... and that it was a complete success, and that all fault (especially that pertaining to the Java stack) is elsewhere, but I can't honestly say I believe that. It would merely be wishful thinking on my part. > >> >> >> I think FESCo should completely forbid modules without packaged >> non-modular versions. >> >> >> -- >> Sincerely, >> Vitaly Zaitsev (vitaly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) >> _______________________________________________ >> devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ >> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines >> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > -- > Alexander Kurtakov > Red Hat Eclipse Team > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
