On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:23 PM Jóhann B. Guðmundsson <johannbg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On 2.7.2020 01:06, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:03 PM Jóhann B. Guðmundsson <johannbg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> On 1.7.2020 23:28, Neal Gompa wrote: > >>> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 7:19 PM Björn Persson <Bjorn@rombobjörn.se> wrote: > >>>> Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: > >>>>> More user friendly than Grub ( has lilo like interface easier to change > >>>>> kernel entry, which goes nicely with the default editor change ) > >>>> This made me go "What?!". I used Lilo back in the day. Its user > >>>> interface was nothing but a prompt. You had to know what to type or > >>>> you'd be stuck. > >>>> > >>>> Information for others like me who haven't seen Lilo since Grub came > >>>> along: Apparently development of Lilo continued until just five years > >>>> ago, and it grew a menu at some point. I guess that menu is the image > >>>> of user-friendliness that Johann was trying to invoke. > >>>> > >>> If I ever wanted to switch to another boot manager, I'd seriously like > >>> us to consider rEFInd: https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ > >>> > >>> It's a very nice boot manager that looks good and doesn't suck. And > >>> purportedly is somewhat (if not fully) compatible with bls. > >>> > >>> sd-boot is too barebones and unfriendly to use, which makes sense > >>> since it was designed for non-interactive machines and not humans to > >>> use. > >> If there is this general feel that sd-boots configuration syntax is much > >> harder to read and the ability of not having to run additional command > >> once the file has been edited or the ability to be able to easily > >> maintain and manage multiple kernels or multiple operating systems due > >> those being a drop-in configuration text files, is considered being too > >> bare bone and *less* user-friendly than grub, then obviously me creating > >> a change proposal based on what Javier suggested along with other > >> cleanups to provide as best user experience as can be had with sd-boot > >> would be doing the distribution a great disservice would it not? > >> > > Oh, I don't care about the configuration syntax. That part would be > > the same across grub, refind, and sd-boot anyway. > > > > The user-interactive portion of sd-boot is *awful*. I know our GRUB > > looks ugly by default these days too, but it doesn't have to be, and > > most distros actually do make it look semi-decent. > > > > But alas, nobody cares about making that part look nice, because they > > hope people don't have to go there at all. But even Windows makes > > their boot manager not look ugly and relatively easy to navigate. And > > obviously Apple has done this forever with macOS. > > > > I honestly don't get why everyone is okay with butt-ugly and user-unfriendly UX. > > Because the end user should never find himself in the boot manager to > begin with that's why no boot manager invest any time in being "pretty". > > The end user should find himself ending up in some form of shiny nice > user friendly rescue environment that helps him troubleshoot his problem > would you agree? > I would, except, we can't have that either, because nobody cares to make that either. In the Windows and macOS world, these two things are paramount and they're combined with a more solid boot manager experience. We have none of that on the Linux side because all the incentives are wrong in the Linux world: we're driven exclusively by people who know what they're doing and don't like change. We have less of this problem in Fedora, but all the *money* in Linux is pushed for *not changing*, so that makes life very difficult. The server world uses automation and APIs as a substitute for making good user experiences. And it shows. That's why we get more dumb services further stratifying the landscape of interfaces needed to do something meaningful rather than actually *changing* things to be better. That's why GUI tools keep getting retired for complex web applications. That's why we can't have nice things. Because nobody with power cares enough. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
