On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 03:42:39PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote: > On 26/06/20 10:33 -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 09:00:58AM -0400, Solomon Peachy wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 08:43:19AM -0400, Neil Horman wrote: > > > > Do we have real stasitics on this (somthing in the form of bz reports or > > > > comments on a list) indicating that users actually are frustrated with being > > > > confronted with vi unexpectedly? > > > > > > Why would one file a bugzilla ticket over this? vi, and the system > > > default, is working as intended. "That's just the way Linux is," say > > > the folks having to answer "how to quit vi" for the umpteenth time. > > > > > Ok, perhaps bugzilla is the wrong venue, but the point stands. Are people > > actually asking how to quit vi (or some simmilar questions) somewhere? If I > > google how to quit vi, I see a full 10 pages of the answer to the question > > documented in detail (which suggests lots of people had the question at some > > point in time), but what I don't see are stackoverflow (or other message board > > posts) asking the question currently. > > For the third time: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/message/4XS6ZYUO4K3OY46MSJQOLBPEKCXZFAE4/ > > Three years ago they said: > > "In the last year, How to exit the Vim editor has made up about .005% > of question traffic: that is, one out of every 20,000 visits to Stack > Overflow questions. That means during peak traffic hours on weekdays, > there are about 80 people per hour that need help getting out of Vim." > Yes, I read that, and I'd make two observations: 1) .005% is small. Searches tagged with git in stack overflow dwarf that number, but we're not looking at making the use of git more self discoverable (not that we shouldnt). But it seems the relative impact of this change is worth noting, both in terms of the benefit to those it would help, and to the frustration of those it might otherwise hinder. 2) Ostensibly, those people got the answer they were looking for. Just because people have a question, doesn't in my mind translate to something being "hard", it just means they had to go look something up. I do that all the time for things I'm just starting to work with, and it doesn't imply that I find that new thing hard, only that I have to learn a bit about it, and once I do, I'm good. I think the question we should be asking isn't "Is vi hard to use?" but rather "Is our default editor something our users are having trouble learning about?" put another way, According to stackoverflow, there are about 26,000 questions there tagged with vi/vim, 19,000 tagged with emacs, and only 222 questions tagged with nano. Nano may be more self-discoverable than vi, I'll gladly stipulate to that, but if a user does have a question, it seems they would be far less able to find the answer to their questions than if they were using a more popular editor. Not that that can't change (I would expect querys about nano to go up if we were to switch), but if the goal is good user experience, I would think theres an argument to be made for there being answers to common question being readily available. Best Neil > > Note I'm not saying we shouldn't make this change, I'm just saying that I don't > > like the idea of making it based on our assumption of what our end users are > > struggling with. If we have references to end users that legitimately have this > > problem, I'd love it to see them, and that would satisfy me. > > See above. I find it surprising, but the numbers are there, and while > I think things have changed a lot in 20 years, I don't think they've > changed much since 2017. > _______________________________________________ > devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
