On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 09:54:49PM -0500, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:37 PM Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > BTW, there is another point here which you may not appreciate: Fedora
> > > and Debian aren't really in competition. Fedora does not see its job as
> > > being to Conquer The World and have everyone run Fedora. Fedora is
> > > targeted at particular purposes and particular audiences. If a given
> > > feature isn't actually driving Fedora's mission forward in any way,
> > > it's reasonable to consider not having it any more, or at least not
> > > making it a core part of the distribution and subject to blocking
> > > requirements and so on. There comes a point at which we don't need to
> > > support Python 2 for the people and use cases at which Fedora is aimed.
> > > Will there still be people who need Python 2 for *something* at this
> > > point? Probably! But, just as you point out, if so, they can get it
> > > somewhere else.
> > >
> > > Someone using Debian instead of Fedora because they need Python 2 isn't
> > > necessarily a *problem* for Fedora. It's only a problem if it would've
> > > served Fedora's goals and purposes for that person to be using Fedora.
> > > If what they do isn't really a part of Fedora's goals...why should we
> > > worry about them using Debian? Debian is a fine distribution. Nothing
> > > wrong with it.
> > >
> > > To put it another way...Debian and Fedora have different purposes and
> > > different goals. Us dropping Python 2 earlier than Debian do is *things
> > > working the right way*. We (arguably) do more than Debian to drive the
> > > adoption and stabilization of new technologies - new stuff tends to
> > > show up in Fedora earlier than it shows up in Debian. Debian (arguably)
> > > does more than we do to provide long-term support for older software
> > > and support for alternate architectures. This is a *good* thing. It's
> > > an ecosystem that helps everyone.
> >
> > Except that this argument does not match actual facts. Debian is actually
> > pretty aggressive at dropping legacy libraries. Debian has dropped Qt 3
> > several years ago and has already started the process of dropping Qt 4. We
> > still support these and even kdelibs 3 and 4 in Fedora (mostly because I am
> > keeping these alive – it turns out that this is actually very little work:
> > no new upstream releases to care about, just occasionally an FTBFS fix or a
> > security fix to backport).
> >
> > The fact that even Debian is not trying to kick out Python 2 yet shows that
> > it is way too early to even consider it. Fedora is the only distribution
> > insane enough to do such a radical move with draconian enforcement, even
> > over the heads of the maintainers of packages depending on Python 2. (We now
> > need explicit permission to depend on a package, a completely unprecedented
> > and ridiculous move.)
> >
>
> You've been saying this a lot lately, and this isn't actually backed
> up by reality.
>
> Debian *is* dropping Python 2 support. As of right now, they are
> working on transitioning to making providing Python 2 packages as
> a bug of serious severity. This means that packages in unstable providing
> Python 2 modules will no longer automatically transition to testing
> and need exceptions to do so. In addition, there's discussion underway
> to make it rc-blocking as well, meaning that packages may not be able
> to transition into testing *without* removing Python 2 support
> *first*.
>
> While not all of this is implemented just yet in Debian (everything
> moves glacially slow there...), it *is* happening. Debian definitely
> does not want to make another release with Python 2 in the
> distribution. Ubuntu has already decided to filter out all Python 2
> packages from Ubuntu 20.04 LTS, so it's not going to be there either.
>
> And you know what? This was all made possible by Fedora's work over
> the last several releases to port lots of software to Python 3,
> aggressively migrate to Python 3 by default, and now finally dropping
> Python 2 stuff over the last three releases.
>
> We may keep the python27 interpreter package for a while, but I don't
> expect us to keep much beyond that.
Right. Must learn to read before posting. Must learn to read the whole
thread before posting.
As a (relatively recent) Debian Developer, I have to say I agree with
everything that Neal said, including the parts about Fedora's work!
G'luck,
Peter
--
Peter Pentchev roam@{ringlet.net,debian.org,FreeBSD.org} pp@xxxxxxxxxxxx
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