On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 7:37 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Sunday, December 15, 2019 6:55:04 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2019 at 5:48 PM John M. Harris Jr <johnmh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2019 5:13:22 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > > > > I spent about 15 minutes on this and found exactly zero systems with > > > > DVD drives, even as an option, on the Apple and Microsoft stores. None > > > > for System76. And none for HP. I did find DVD drives a custom build > > > > option on Dell's website. But even if there are some ways to dig > > > > around for systems with optical drives, it's not at all persuasive > > > > that it's common or typical or standard on prebuilt systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > What were you looking at? I don't know about Apple, nor how that's > > > relevant, since installing a new OS on those systems invalidates the > > > hardware warranty, > > > > a. It's relevant because Fedora has explicit support for Macs in the > > installer; and a Mac specific release criterion. > > b. The warranty claim is incorrect. > > Can you provide me with the name of the Mac specific release criterion? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_32_Final_Release_Criteria#OS_X_dual_boot >It's > certainly true that Apple will not service your hardware if you've got an OS > other than their proprietary nonsense installed. In no way is it true, let alone certainly true. They've explicitly supported Windows (i.e. not their proprietary nonsense) on Macs for 13 years via Boot Camp. Software they include in default installations of macOS. I've had Fedora on Macs for many years, including on one sent for service and they didn't care. > > > > and I didn't even know Microsoft sold hardware. As for System76, I > > > recently purchased a laptop from them, their Darter Pro. It even has an > > > option, when buying the device, to include an external optical drive, > > > because they understand it's a feature that many people still rely on. > > > > > > Yes. It is an option, not standard. > > For laptops. For desktops, it is still a standard offering. Literally zero desktops I looked at today, come with optical drives standard. Do they exist? I don't doubt they do. But they're far less common than the standard prebuilt systems that don't have it. And it doesn't even matter because what matters is what the community resources dictate for this use case. And the whole impetus behind the change proposal is lack of testers. > > > > It has been the standard method of installing an OS since the mid 2000s, > > > and was popularized long before that. It is still the standard method of > > > installing Fedora. > > > > > > Your information is outdated. Apple and Microsoft haven't offered > > optical media included in the box for years. For a long time now > > Windows 10 OEM's offer a tool to create USB install software from a > > recovery image on the drive. Not optical media. > > "included in the box" was never my claim. A standard method of installing, and yet not included in the box. It's a standard way to not install. >I don't think Apple has ever > included ANY installation media in the box. They did for many years. Floppies, CD's, DVDs. > > Fedora testing can't get more than a couple people to test the optical > > release criterion. These days it's typically Adam or Kamil digging > > into a supply of DVDs they keep around exclusively for this test, > > having no purpose for them otherwise. Overwhelmingly QA testers and > > feedback is based on USB stick installations. > > You make it sound like disks are hard to come by. They're not. Indeed, it's the users with optical drives who are hard to come by, especially for testing. -- Chris Murphy _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
