On Thu, 2013-05-02 at 10:08 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On May 2, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Bruno Wolff III <bruno@xxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > This is pretty much what happened with CD images. Eventually this will change, but it isn't clear to me that this is the right time to make that change. > > CentOS 6 uses two DVD images. Apple, before dropping DVD's with new computers, went with two DVD's for a period, even though they had hardware that supported DVD/DL. There's precedent. If it's going to cause aneurisms figuring out what to drop, just use two images. It doesn't seem to be causing any aneurysms. There've been lots of suggestions for drops and no "NOOOOOO DON'T DROP MY PRECIOUS THINGS!" mails. It seems like a solve-able problem. FWIW I agree with the general trend of discussion so far: let's find things to drop that don't really need to be on the DVD so we can keep MATE and Cinnamon. You can install those from live images or from repos of course, just like anything else, but they are things it makes a deal of sense to provide for offline users - probably more so than many of the candidates for removal so far - and there is a substantial PR benefit to including them. Most press don't understand the ins and outs of DVDs vs. live images vs. repositories vs. net installs and so on. I recall only one F18 review that accurately nailed the status of Cinnamon and MATE in F18 - in the repositories, available from net install, but no live image and not on the DVDs. Aside from that lone hero, the reviewers who actually bothered to download and install Fedora usually said 'you can't install Cinnamon or MATE at install time' (because they used the DVD and didn't know how network installs work). The 'reviewers' who just went off the release notes said "Cinnamon and MATE are included in Fedora 18!" and then readers who didn't understand the subtleties downloaded the DVD, saw it wasn't there, and bashed us, the reviewers or both. So, yeah - whatever the theoreticals, there is a practical benefit to having Cinnamon and MATE on the DVD, and I agree with the general thrust of 'removing things whose users we can reasonably expect to usually have a network connection', as the *key* use case of the DVD (the case where something's presence on the DVD is a necessity rather than a convenience) is offline users. To address a couple of other points that have come up: the world certainly hasn't reached the point where we can target DL DVDs or huge USB sticks and forget about the SL DVD target, no. We still have significant usage of the DVD images, ambassadors can confirm this. You can write Fedora to USB sticks without destroying their existing contents; livecd-iso-to-disk and liveusb-creator can both do this. And the official size target for the DVD truly is the size of a writeable single-layer / single-side DVD; there is a benefit to keeping it under 4GB if possible (it's the maximum file size on a FAT32 partition, so some Windows users cannot download larger images), but we don't hold ourselves to it as a hard limit. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
