John: I'm sorry if you think I'm rude, but that's beside the point. Whether belaboring this point does any of us any good is doubtful if we've moved into emotional reactions. I'm certainly happy to drop the 'i' word, if that's so offensive, and I've certainly no need to win any points with you on this subject. In fact, I suspect we're actually engaging in something which is often dubbed "violent agreement." As you asked me to do in your last note, I have indeed read through the entire history of our exchanges today. They're alsol preserved, yet again, in this note. Most of what you say is just fine, in my opinion. But, characterize it as you will, I cannot find you faultless--the only point to my first message earlier today where I said "correction, please." You would seem to have it that Windows and JAWS are easily installed in about an hour, whereas linux takes study before one can successfully install. May I now simply suggest that you are wrong if for no other reason than that I blind person will be very hard pressed to install Windows at all without assistance? It is this pairing and comparison that I objected to and would continue to object to, except that there's likely no point in rehashing the same words over and over. On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, John G. Heim (26 2-9887) wrote: > I don't think it does you any good to keep saying I'm being illogical. I > merely have an opinion you disagree with and I think it only makes you look > bad to be so rude. > > I didn't compare installing a single app to installing an entire operating > system. If you'll review what I wrote, you'll see that. You seem to be > insisting on making this a religious war rather than addressing the > technical issues. > > Even if linux is easier to install than Windows (which I don't believe) > it's not relevant because the original questioner already has Windows and JAWS. > > Think about it. Here's a person who doesn't make his living making > computers work. If he did, at the end he'd have acquired a marketable > skill. But he doesn't. Plus he's already got Windows and JAWS. You want him > to go into this blind? (Pardon the pun). He should know that it could be a > long, bumpy road before he's back to where he is now if he over writes > Windows with linux. > > In fact, he may not be able to get all the way back to where he was. What > was your answer to the question posted recently about personal finance > software in linux? Lets face it, that was a tough question. In Windows, the > question would not be whether such software exists but rather which of > several programs should he choose from. > > If you get into linux you have to be prepared to put some sweat into it. If > you don't agree with that you're entitled to your opinion but I think > you're wrong. > > At 03:07 PM 12/3/01 -0500, you wrote: > >No, it's perfectly appropriate to tell someone to go study. What is > >illogical is to suggest that installing Windows is easier than installing > >linux. And, it is illogical to compare installing an application under > >Windows to installing an entire unfamiliar OS--linux to be precise. The > >parallel would be more like rpm or apget vs setup.exe, where it seems rpm > >and apget would have to win hands down. > > > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, John G. Heim > >(26 2-9887) wrote: > > > > > Well, it may be illogical but I'm fairly sure most casual computer users > > > these days expect to be able to install software without consulting the > > > manual. I don't think it's at all illogical to warn someone that they're > > > going to have to do some studying before they'll be able to make full use > > > of their linux system. > > > > > > In fact, my opinion is that it would be irresponsible not to issue that > > > warning. This is why I posted even at the risk of starting a religious > > war. > > > As much as anyone here, I believe Bill Gates is the bad guy and Linus > > > Torval is the good guy. > > > > > > But the original question was essentially "Is linux right for me?" If > > > someone is not a computer geek by trade and they already have a > > > Windows/JAWS system maybe not. > > > > > > Also, our original questioner listed his system specs in great detail and > > > they did not include a speech synthesizer. So I don't think it's possible > > > for him to install linux without sighted assistance. Am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > At 12:12 PM 12/3/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > >Correction, please. Anything you need to read about before doing will take > > > >longer. It's patently illogical to suggest, therefore, that the need to > > > >learn about something new, ipso facto redners the new more troublesome in > > > >some way or another. > > > > > > > >To bring this back to the issue at hand, installing, I think you'll find > > > >that linux with assistive technology can be installed just as fast, if not > > > >faster, once you know what you're doing. And, you'll also find that it can > > > >be installed by a blind user (or by a deaf-blind user) without sighted > > > >assistance--unlike that M$ OS. > > > > > > > > On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, John G. Heim (26 > > > >2-9887) wrote: > > > > > > > > > My opinion is that Linux is a much better operating system than > > Windows > > > > but > > > > > it takes a lot more effort to get it working than Windows. You can > > install > > > > > Windows and JAWS, accept all the defaults, and be up and running in > > about > > > > > an hour. That is not going to be the case with Linux. With Linux, you > > > > > pretty much have to read the instructions. And even if you do, there > > > > may be > > > > > things about your installation that need some tweeking to work. > > > > > > > > > > If you take the time to learn Linux, you'll find that it's much more > > > > > powerful than even Windows 2000. But you may not need the extra > > > > features of > > > > > Linux. Things like dialing into the internet, using a word processor, > > > > > balancing your checkbook are probably easier in Windows than in > > Linux. But > > > > > linux makes a much better file server or web server than Windows. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing to consider is that if you learn how to use Linux you > > may be > > > > > able to help other blind people in your country use Linux. Linux and > > > > > emacspeak are free. Windows & JAWS cost hundreds of dollars. This > > may not > > > > > apply to you since you already have JAWS but you may be able to > > help other > > > > > blind people in your area get a speech enabled computer for practically > > > > > nothing with Linux. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:30 AM 12/2/01 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi Saqib, > > > > > >I'm delighted of the fact that you and few other members of the list > > > > > >answered me practically at once. > > > > > >Thank you for that! > > > > > >Now questions: > > > > > >You wrote: > > > > > >1. Do you only use a Braille display, or do you use speech > > also? If so, > > > > > >which speech synthesiser do you have? > > > > > >>Marijan: At the moment I have only desktop machine (Celeron processor > > > > > >>Pentium 3 633MHz overclocked to 750MHz, 128MB RAM, 20GB hdd( with > > sound > > > > > >>Blaster live 1024 and the oldest Tieman's Braille display with 40+5 > > > > cells > > > > > >>named Keybraille (the predecessor of Combibraille). But just now > > I am in > > > > > >>the market for Toshiba satellite 2800-600 laptop, Alva Satellite 544 > > > > > >>portable and JFW 4.0 or 4.1, depending on the time when I'll pay. > > At the > > > > > >>moment I don't think about buying of hardware speech synthesizer. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>You wrote: > > > > > >>2. How much computing knowledge do you have? > > > > > >>Marijan: It's so clear, I am not a programmer at all, I didn't learn > > > > JAWS > > > > > >>scripting language yet but I use JFW and other applications I > > need very > > > > > >>easily. In the nearest future I plan to learn more about HTML and > > how to > > > > > >>make the web sites. Of course, it's very small piece of knowledge but > > > > > >>until now I had no chance to learn more because in my country I > > was the > > > > > >>first blind man who bought a computer and started to use it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>You wrote: > > > > > >>3. What sort of things do you want to use Linux for? > > > > > >>Marijan: As a radio journalist I have to use text-processor to > > write my > > > > > >>articles (I prefer WordPerfect but I use Word also); OCR programme to > > > > > >>recognize the printed materials I need (I just installed Fine > > reader 5.0 > > > > > >>trial which recognize Cyrillic);and sound editor like Sound forge > > > > witch I > > > > > >>like it very much. > > > > > >>I am sorry but I don't know what I should expect of Linux. I have > > heard > > > > > >>that Linux is much more stable then Windows but I don't know if > > there > > > > are > > > > > >>the applications I mentioned above. > > > > > >>Anyway, I'd like to try it and see what is better. > > > > > >>BTW, which version of Linux allows me to start a Windows apps from > > > > within > > > > > >>the Linux? > > > > > >>Thank you very much for your effort to help me, indeed! > > > > > >>Sorry for my pegen English. > > > > > >>Sincerely, > > > > > >>Marijan > > > > > >> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > John G. Heim > > > > > WiscINFO Customer Service Coordinator > > > > > Division of Information Technology > > > > > jheim@doit.wisc.edu > > > > > 608-262-9887 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > > > Technology Research and Development > > > > Governmental Relations Group > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > > > > > >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > > > > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG > > > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > > > >http://www.openebook.org > > > > > > > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper, > > > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp > > > > > > > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther > > > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at > > > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp > > > > > > > >Learn how to make accessible software at > > > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > -- > > > John G. Heim > > > WiscINFO Customer Service Coordinator > > > Division of Information Technology > > > jheim@doit.wisc.edu > > > 608-262-9887 > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > >-- > > > > Janina Sajka, Director > > Technology Research and Development > > Governmental Relations Group > > American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) > > > >Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 > > > >Chair, Accessibility SIG > >Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) > >http://www.openebook.org > > > >Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper, > >Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp > > > >Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther > >King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at > >http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp > > > >Learn how to make accessible software at > >http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Blinux-list@redhat.com > >https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > -- > John G. Heim > WiscINFO Customer Service Coordinator > Division of Information Technology > jheim@doit.wisc.edu > 608-262-9887 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- Janina Sajka, Director Technology Research and Development Governmental Relations Group American Foundation for the Blind (AFB) Email: janina@afb.net Phone: (202) 408-8175 Chair, Accessibility SIG Open Electronic Book Forum (OEBF) http://www.openebook.org Will electronic books surpass print books? Read our white paper, Surpassing Gutenberg, at http://www.afb.org/ebook.asp Download a free sample Digital Talking Book edition of Martin Luther King Jr's inspiring "I Have A Dream" speech at http://www.afb.org/mlkweb.asp Learn how to make accessible software at http://www.afb.org/accessapp.asp