Actually, AC flew the Seoul route from the start. It was a consolation prize to AC who whinged that CP had all the choice Asian routes, whereas AC was force to compete with CP to Europe (LHR specifically). I think Osaka came later, and at some point AC became "second" carrier to HKG. I flew AC to HKG in a 747-433 combi; this was in '96; a CP bird was also present at Kai Tak. I'm pretty sure about the Seoul route, as I made 10 business trips there starting in '89, then resuming in '95. The first trip I flew CP to NRT then connected to a JAL flight to SEL. By '95 I was flying AC's Combis to SEL, which then became A340s, and eventually, daily 767-300 service. My last trip to SEL (actually now ICN), was in May of last year, perhaps my last ever as I have now moved to a non-travelling job (my choice, it also pays way more). Incidentally many of those ex-CP 737-200s are still earning their keep, for Zip, whereas the DC9s, alas, are gone. Mike Gammon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Montano" <mmontano@direct.ca> To: <AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Canadian Airlines International > My two cents. > > I flew both constantly for many years. > > CP clearly had the poorer equipment. While their 737s were workhorses > and (most of them) were in excellent operating condition, they were > uncomfortable for anything longer than an hour or two. When it came to > YYZ-YVR jaunts, I preferred AC. And any of my YUL/YOW->YVR jaunts > (against the wind), I ALWAYS chose AC, as Mike noted, the risk of > getting a non-ER equipped 737-200 was high. I also had a favour for > AC's energizer DC9s. > > CP's DC-10s were unfortunate. I used to get a few doing YYZ->YVR. Great > planes from a historical perspective. But AC was flying 763's and A340s > and even 330s right at the end on the same routes. > > I never flew CP overseas. > > Pacific Western, it's financial predecessor rocked in comparison from > my memory. Some of the same spirit as Westjet. > > When CP decided to go head to head with AC on the YYZ-YUL routes, I > quite enjoyed my regular 767-300 service. We used to call it the > "fluffy egg flight" referring to the food being served. Yes, a hot > breakfast on a 50 minute flight, in 1995 no less! > > When it came to res systems, AC's was superior... or the user's knew it > better. Me and my travel agents had far too many run-in's with the CP > SABRE system they used for reservations. Their code-share setup with AA > was pathetic, and generated numerous painful incidents at CP ticketing > offices. > > CP's lounges were mostly superior over ACs. In YVR at least, they've > kept the CP one at the expense of the AC one. > > But the decision point that would sway me in the direction of CP was > all of their staff. They really did care about doing a good job. Given > the lousy hours, lousy equipment, lousy pay and lousy systems, they > shined above it all. On some flights, you'd swear you were on a Wardair > DC-10 flight from Toronto to Barbados in 1978 or a Pacific Western > milkrun flight from Toronto to Thunder Bay, on to Brandon and then > Regina. > > As for the Far-East, CP 'owned' the market. About two days after the > anti-trust rules were dropped (which lead to the AC takeover of CP), AC > offered to buy CP's Asian routes. CP declined as they knew they were > their crown jewels. I believe AC had a flight to HKG and Osaka and that > was about it. CP served HKG, Bejing, Taipei?, Shanghai? Seoul? and > several other places with their 744, DC10 and 763 fleet. > > Matthew > > On Sunday, February 16, 2003, at 06:06 PM, Mike Gammon wrote: > > > I've flown both to Asia, and across Canada, and Canadian to South > > America. > > > > It's really 6 of one, half dozen of the other. AC had nicer seats on > > "Executive First" compared to CP's business class. I've had nice and > > grumpy > > F/As on both. I've had on-time and delays on both. I've had great > > trips > > and miserable trips on both, though my most miserable was on return > > from > > Japan on CP. Delay in Vancouver due to a late aircraft, then > > substitution > > for a non-ER 737-200 which required a tech stop in Winnipeg which > > meant a 5 > > am arrival at Montreal, instead of 8 pm, which meant busting curfew at > > Dorval, which meant a divert to Miserabelle. > > > > To Asia I flew YYZ-NRT non-stop on a DC10-30 in business. Horrible > > business > > class seats. Very long ride, 14 hours. I've done the same trip the > > other > > way on AC, in an A340. Guess which I preferred? To be fair, the > > A340s came > > late in the game. AC's contemporaries to the DC10s on int'l routes > > would be > > the 747s and L1011s (at least until the late '80s). > > > > Things improved on CP when they picked up the 767-300s and later the > > 747-400s but I never flew on a CP 747-400 (only on AC's combis, as > > well as > > Varig and BA). > > > > I can tell you one thing though: on transcon flights, CP was flying > > 737s > > non-stop YUL-YVR well into the Airbus era. Now, THAT was a miserable > > flight, over five and a half hours in economy. Plus, if the wind gods > > weren't just right, or an ER took sick and had to be replaced with a > > regular > > 737-200, a technical stop in Winnipeg. > > > > In those days I would avoid CP like the plague on YUL-YVR. For a > > while, > > even their "business class" was merely an unoccupied center seat > > whereas AC > > had a full business class seat. > > > > Those are my reminiscences. If I had to give a preference, I'd give a > > slight edge to AC for better equipment. CP often gave me the > > impression of > > being on a shoestring (like the 737s on transcons). > > > > Mike Gammon > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael A. Burris" <yul@prodigy.net> > > To: <AIRLINE@LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU> > > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 7:36 PM > > Subject: Canadian Airlines International > > > > > >> AIRLINE: > >> > >> I'm looking for some candid opinions from members of > >> this list who've flown Canadian Airlines International > >> when it was up and running. Was the service (in > >> particular to the Far-East) better than on Air Canada? > >> > >> Were their lounges at the airport nicer than Air > >> Canada? Were the FA's nicer than at Air Canada? > >> What about the planes themselves? > >> > >> I'm writing a story on Air Canada and need some > >> background info on Canadian. In addition, can anyone > >> guess how many employees over all lost their jobs > >> because of the merger? What ever happened to Ken > >> Benson, former CAI, CEO? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Michael A. Burris > >> Cambridge, Massachusetts > >> > >