On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 04:46:33PM -0700, Casey Schaufler wrote: > On 7/16/2013 3:39 PM, Sarah Sharp wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 12:18:21AM +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 02:12:35PM -0700, Sarah Sharp wrote: > >>> I *hate* both direct personal insults and indirect personal insults. > >>> Neither should be acceptable in our community. > >>> > >>> As I stated in an email to Rusty, what I'm objecting to here is not > >>> kernel developers criticizing code. I'm objecting to personal attacks, > >>> and developers directing personal verbal abuse towards each other. This > >>> include all developers, not just Linus. > >> Well, there are people like me who don't mind getting personally > >> insulted but who are really pained when their work is criticized. > >> > >> You'd rather tell me I'm a fucking moron than all what I carefully > >> designed, wrote and tested is pure crap. Probably that part of the > >> reason is that I'm as I am and I'm not really responsible for this, > >> so I don't care. Call me ugly if you want, why should I bother ? But > >> if you tell me I did some crap, it's entirely my fault and that hurts > >> a lot more. > > I think we come from different perspectives here. I can change my code. > > Therefore, I don't mind my code being insulted. I cannot change myself. > > Sure you can, he began politely. > > It's a process called personal growth, and it happens to most > of us as we go through life. It is in reasonable to expect change > and to some degree manage the way in which one's self changes. It > is unreasonable and expect to manage changes in others, although we > do insist on trying. Personal change does happen, but at a much slower pace. And it takes both a will to change, and incentive in order for change to happen. If someone wants personal change in others or in the community, there needs to be both incentive to change, and a will to change in the community. I've provided examples and personal stories in an attempt to give incentive to change. I cannot force on anyone the will to change, nor would I want to. I cannot "manage" change in others. I can only politely point out that the current community behavior does hurt other people, and keep people from contributing. > Communities develop expectations of behavior based on many factors. > No community responds well to individuals who demand changes in the > norms of the community. This is especially true when the change is > a demand that some aspect of the community that is seen as unique > or empowering by the members of the community be suppressed. The majority in the community never reacts well to minority voices in the community asking for change. (Note, I'm talking a majority of numbers, not a racial or gender minority.) I'm not demanding change. I'm merely asking to discuss the possibly of change at KS. > Email communities are notorious for what would be considered > inexcusable behavior in most other kinds of community. I do not > know of any explanation, nor will I attempt to justify the claim. > I suspect that the relative anonymity has something to do with it, > as does the fact you can't actually raise your voice or glare. Or > smile smugly, for that matter. I do smile often in email. :) And be sad. :( And be apologetic. :-/ Smug. ^~^ Angry. >:[ Sarcastic. ;) Trolling/crazy. 8) D'oh. (>.<) Worried. (>_>); Disappointed. (-_-) Kitty! =^_^= Meow! Be creative. There are ways of expressing emotion without cussing. > The norms of the Linux kernel community have changed over time, > and will continue to do so. Communities, like the individuals that > make them up, change over time. Linus and Al Viro have changed over > the years. I have changed over the years. If you stick around, you > will too. If you don't you'll still change, but in different ways. I do believe I have changed over the six years I've been involved in the kernel. If anything, I've gotten better at being loud, speaking my mind, and figuring out what's bad code and how to politely tell people I don't take their code. I do think it is a mark of respect, both from the community, and from me, that people are actually listening and responding to me raising this issue. The discussion has been mainly civil, even if we disagree. Five, ten years ago, I probably would have gotten flamed out of the community entirely. So, in short, thank you for listening. We may disagree, but I appreciate being listened to. > The changes that the community makes may or may not suit you when > they happen. You can certainly work to influence the behavior of > the community. Demanding that the community change to suit your > desires doesn't work in your apartment building (dorm, homeowner's > association or county courthouse) either. That's basic social > behavior. Look to yourself for change before you look to change > others. It works better. As I mentioned, I have changed much over the past six years. I suspect this particular thread will change me, although over a longer period of time, and in ways that may not be immediately obvious to the community. I suspect the same will be true of changes in the community. The point is that if no one stands up and asks for change, nothing will change. I do not demand, I merely ask for people to consider change. Sarah Sharp -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe stable" in the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html