Hello SoX_NG,
you wrote:
> > [echos should be a really sequential delay ...]
> As long as it does something that you can't do with any of
> the current effects, and is generic enough to be able to
> construct any of the kinds of delay we see in the
> literature: multi-tap (which can probably already be done
> with "echo" already, if with some effort)
In my opinion "echo" is a perfect multitap delay (only
currently without a feedback loop). And I do not see any
effort to provide a multitap delay with "echo": it's the same.
> and feedback for example.
Well, there had been a previous discussion on how to enhance
the existing "echo"/"echos" with a feedback without too much
effort. My recommendation would be to use the following
syntax:
echo gainIn gainOut [-f globalFeedback]
delay1 decay1 [-f stageFeedback1]
{ delayX decayX [-f stageFeedbackX] }
The syntax is fully downward-compatible to the current
syntax, it's easy to parse and it provides feedback both
for all the stages combined and within each stage
individually.
If the feedback is a factor (instead of a decibels value) one
could also use negative factors to produce cancellation
effects.
> > > [the current chorus it is not a chorus, which is the
> > > addition of delayed and detuned version of the same
> > > signal; it is a simple flanger,]
> > Now you've lost me. When you are modulating a delay
> > line, you will get a vibrato on the original signal with
> > some slight delay.
> A real chorus takes one instrument sound and makes it sound
> like there are several of them playing not entirely
> synchronously and at very slightly different pitches.
> See http://csounds.com/toots/#toot4 - Chorusing
> [...]
You're right that the standard chorus only _emulates_ that
setup with simple technical means. But I find it problematic
to provide an effect that uses an established name but does
something much more complex and different.
If you have a look at your wiki
https://codeberg.org/sox_ng/Effects-Explained/wiki/Chorus
the description of a chorus is as mentioned before.
> [the chorus effect implemented as a modulated tap delay is
> insufficient for several reasons]
I found a nice paper on that ("The Chorus Effect Revisited"
from Kahlin and Ternström from 1999), but the question is
whether to implement a new effect that follows some
academical approach and sounds really good or instead
provide an effect that just implements common practice in
sound effects.
> > > [The number of stages was not correctly implemented in
> > > prior versions]
> > The current fixed chorus does exactly that with as many
> > parallel stages as you like - at least 7 ;-).
> Good. Getting rid of fixed size limits is also on the list
> and the number of "echo" stages is now
> unlimited. "chorus"' current limit of 7 stages may also be
> bogus or at worst should be 255; I haven't looked hard at
> it yet.
It uses the same logic as echo, hence 255 stages are
immediately possible (following your reasoning) and that
should be more than sufficient.
I assume that exceeding that number is not at all helpful,
because such a voice count really does not make any sense
musically and you also have to specify all those parameters
on a single command line.
> > So as already mentioned we should leave the chorus, but
> > replace the phaser (or leave it for compatibility
> > reasons as is and add a "fazer" effect as you had
> > proposed).
> and to avoid confusion, let "the SoX chorus effect" mean
> the time-modulated delay thing, "khorus" mean the mixing
> of detuned signals and plain "chorus" a vague term that
> has been applied to many different effects
Fine, any term is okay for me for a more sophisticated effect.
What about "choir" or "choral" for your "khorus"?
> (and not just these two - every guitar pedal is
> different!)
Hmm, there might be slight differences, but to my knowledge
nowadays you mostly have modulated digital delay lines for a
chorus.
> > [Chorus Definition from Wikipedia]
> Whoever wrote that only knew about the modulated delay lines
> that are so commonly used to make an affordable effect.
> [this is not a "real" chorus!, see above]
See above. Have a look at your wiki in sox_ng and e.g.
in the Native Instruments blog
https://blog.native-instruments.com/chorus-effect/
Those guys know about musical effects, hence they count
as a valid reference.
And why throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you want to
offer an unprecedented choral effect, then I'll be the first
to support you. But there are still so many things to do
with SoX_ng that I would at first settle for simple and
established effects instead of polishing everything up
to the max with great effort.
Best regards,
Prof. Spock
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