On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Eric Butera [mailto:eric.butera@xxxxxxxxx] >> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:53 PM >> To: Daevid Vincent >> Cc: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: Doctrine madness! >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Eric Butera [mailto:eric.butera@xxxxxxxxx] >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 2:58 PM >> >> To: Daevid Vincent >> >> Cc: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> Subject: Re: Doctrine madness! >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Daevid Vincent <daevid@xxxxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:quickshiftin@xxxxxxxxx] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:51 AM >> >> >> To: php-general@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >> >> Subject: Doctrine madness! >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi gang, >> >> >> >> >> >> If anyone out there has some experience w/ Doctrine now would be a >> great >> >> >> time to share it! >> >> > >> >> > Yeah, I've used Doctrine as part of Symfony. Both suck balls and are a >> >> perfect example of why you should NEVER use frameworks. Lesson learned >> the >> >> hard way. Re-write with your own MySQL wrappers and for the love of God >> and >> >> all that is holy do NOT make it an ORM wrapper. >> >> > >> >> > KTHXBYE. >> >> > >> >> >> >> I do believe that was the most eloquent and enlightened email that has >> >> ever graced my inbox. Thank you for taking the time to edify us with >> >> that pithy reply. >> > >> > Glad I could be of service. There was no point in elaborating more on >> either Doctrine or Symfony any further. >> > >> > Sometimes, like that guy that fell down the canyon, you have to cut your >> own arm off with a swiss army knife to save your life. In this case, get rid >> of Doctrine or any other ORM, despite the painful operation, and save your >> project from a slow and agonizing death. >> > >> > ORM's and "ActiveRecord" style wrappers, while sounding sexy -- like the >> "babe" on the other end of a 1-900 number -- usually turn out to be fat and >> bloated. All that "magic" comes at a price. This is why Ruby on Rails has >> started to fall out of favor with ANY big shop and you are hearing less and >> less about it. It's cute and seems magnificent at first, but quickly starts >> to show its limitations and short-comings when you REALLY try to use it. >> > >> > :) >> > >> > >> > -- >> > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) >> > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php >> > >> > >> >> I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. I used to write my queries by >> hand, but over time you start to realize that perhaps, maybe writing >> out thousands of identical lines of code over hundreds of projects >> might not be an efficient usage of time. > > I never said to do that. I said to write your own wrappers and your own "framework" for YOUR needs. A one-size-fits all solution is never going to be as clean or efficient as your own code. See previous rant and I'm sure there are archives of my other rants on the failure that is ORM & Frameworks. > >> What is the more common question from clients: why is this so slow, >> or, client asks why is this not finished yet? > > ...until the project gains traction and starts to get users and then it will be, "why is this so slow?!" > >> I do like the half-hearted diatribe against ROR, which I will assume >> is a wildcard, allow any language/framework combination to stand-in. > > Yes, frameworks as a whole suck. > > However, I will concede the one framework I do enjoy and find much more useful is jQuery, if for no other reason than it handles all the minutia and BS of browser incompatibilities and parsing the DOM in JS. It's fairly lightweight and works very well for the most part. Even having said that, I really only use jQuery on a need-to-use basis and not for everything JS related. But once you have to include it in a page for some necessary reason, you might as well continue to use it in the page since you've already downloaded it to the client and it makes the code easier to read vs. jumping in and out of raw JS and jQueryScript(tm) > >> The real take-away message here is that you're trying to paint >> everything with the brush that you see the world in, while the reality >> is that not everyone has your requirements. Personally, I don't enjoy > > If it's a project bigger than your own personal website, then eventually you WILL have "my requirements". > >> trying to mess around with ill-conceived, backwards-compatible >> adhering designs from 12 years ago. I understand that growth is >> organic and deal with it on a daily basis in my own projects. Hence, >> I use a framework and other tooling that allows me to complete jobs in >> a tidy and orderly fashion. > > Name me some LARGE popular sites that use frameworks? > > Again, if you want to make your little companies website or personal page, go for it. Frameworks are great for prototypes and simple stuff. Anything more and you're going to hate life after a year or two using it. Fact. > >> If I need something a little more >> cutting-edge I can always drop down lower on the stack to bypass PHP >> with other techniques like caching or bypassing the framework >> altogether. To say that all frameworks are a complete waste of time > > Good luck with that. Easier said than done sometimes. Many times... > >> and will only (absolutely) end in failure is quite a disservice to >> anyone who reads this list. > > >> I've seen too many people over the years try and rally against common >> sense practices like using prepared statements for perhaps a marginal >> gain of performance on one page while their load averages are 0,0,0. > > Agreed. The ONLY time prepared statements are useful, is in a loop where you're changing a few variables but within the same SQL statement. That is a rare case for most people. > >> Same with other tools that allow developers to crank out projects >> orders faster. > > Faster short term. With long term consequences. > >> out XSS out of the box. Of course, with diligence and time we can all >> overcome these things, but that does not mean someone with the >> ambition to bang together a quick website for a relative understands >> the real perils they're getting into - I certainly did not. > > I'm sure Anonymous or any other hacker worth worrying about isn't looking to deface your grandmother's website. > > ;-) > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > Yes, ;-) indeed. When you resort to personal attacks on supposed wealth and my poor grandmother the argument is over. In case you don't understand, you lost for name calling with no sustenance in your reply. That was some clumsy side-stepping of my arguments. Perhaps you'd like to try again when you're feeling more up to it? Really though, you could have saved yourself so many keystrokes by typing "Nuh-uh." To anyone else reading this though, when you're a fortune 500 company, you'll have fortune 500 company problems and this is a good problem to have. If you're at that level, you'll know what to do. Otherwise, do the right thing and follow the advice of others who have trodden before you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
