On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 2:40 AM, David Hutto <smokefloat@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> As I mentioned below, if PHP is sluggish, shouldn't it be brought up >> to the PHP developers instead? ÂWhy would you try include more >> complexity? > > I'm sure it has, it's called benchmarks. And they can't top C or > Fortran, last I saw. But that is not the point. And did you not see my > point about how it's just an initial usage of C to put out php and > html/css/js, and that 'complexity' must be as simple as a printf > function in another language. Why don't you snatch your nose out of > php's asshole for a second to realize it's not the center of a > multilanguage project, and sometimes neither is C, or any other > language It's the consumers, or the designers, or yours. > Then you obviously didn't read my example fully. Isn't Javascript/Flash a language? Javascript/Flash provides what PHP lacks, client side. If PHP has performance issues, you're introducing complexity by adding C into the mix when the performance issues should be brought to the PHP developers' attention, as stated before. If you really have issues with PHP's performance, why even bother to include PHP then? Why not just do C to crank out HTML, JS, and CSS since portability isn't a concern as you've stated? My nose isn't in PHP's asshole. I code in C# (ASP.NET and Winforms) when my need is there. In some of those instances, I had to use PInvoke because C# didn't provide the functionality I need. So I don't have problems using multi-language solution. To me, your proposal just add complexity into something that should have been properly addressed in the first place. This brings right along with the discussion about PHP implementing threads. If you need threads for better performance and since PHP doesn't provide it, then I do see use for C. Other than that, I don't ATM. >> >>>> >>>> Just a case scenario. ÂIf C is included to 'to spit out the above in >>>> html/php/js/css' and should you happen to be out town/country on >>>> vacation, the other developer(s) doesn't know C and the application >>>> requires some minor bug fix or minor addition. ÂThe problem is now >>>> that modification required is in C. >>> >>> No, the problem lies in the error message, which lies in the >>> underlying language. > > If you don't know step by step function programming, or debugging, > then why are you arguing with me? > Are you reading it correctly? The 'No, the problem lies in the error ...' isn't my comment... > And familiarity with work is in properly >>> commented and documented code. If the company isn't willing to >>> maintain that throughout the course of development, then your >>> misunderstanding is money out of their pocket. > > Nah, just your clients, and that should have been accounted for in > your project bid. > >>> >>> >>> ÂÂDo you want your vacation >>>> disturbed? >>> >>> For money, I comment and document, but disturbed isn't a problem, as >>> long as it's a guaranteed under the contract. >>> >>> Except in the case of an emergency, I don't. :) >>> >>> But does the contract end at consumer misuse, or your discretion, and >>> do they decide, or you? And then when does that end, when you're too >>> important to respond, or had a better offer? >>> >>> ÂNot to >>>> mention if where you're vacationing at have a fast internet >>>> connection, or even an internet connection at all. ÂWhile this >>>> approach may mean job stability in this situation, I could see it >>>> opposite as it causes more down time for the business as being unable >>>> to adapt quickly to the ever changing needs required by the economy >>>> and/or customers/clients. ÂIn the end, if the business can't stay in >>>> business, you're out of a job. ÂIn one of my recent job experience, I >>>> was in a 3 person IT team. Âd >>> >>> You mean you and a few guys/gals got together, and threw together an app? >>> >>> >>> We have a DBA, developer (also the >>>> manager), and I'm the system/network/telecom admin. >>> >>> You probably got a thesaurus, and small business guide to success too. >>> >> >> No, the DBA is needed because the amount of the data that our site >> handles for the customers specific to local region. ÂThe manager just >> happens to be a software developer. > > Did he tell you that, or provide credentials? That;s what most project > heads do, I assume. > Yes, he showed me his coursework and tried to get the PhD. Due to a family emergency, he couldn't complete it at that time. Yes, we all saw each other's resume and CV. And cross trained to provide support in the areas where anyone of us lacks the basics so we could provide full 24/7 support in the event that there are 2 of 3 IT members available for _any reason_: vacation, family emergency, etc... > We only wrote codes because we >> needed some functionality to improve efficiency of the site. ÂPrior to >> writing the code, we had submitted a BRD to corporate for them to >> provide us that functionality. ÂThey said it's not necessary without >> further explanation. ÂIn the end, we all left the company because >> upper management didn't seem to be really business & economic aware. >> Even the site manager left the company too. ÂFor me, when the CEO >> gives a presentation about outlook for the company, he said that >> 'we're still trying to figure out why the company didn't meet last >> year projections'. ÂThis was 6 months in the new fiscal year. ÂI lost >> all respect for upper management. ÂIn all my job experiences, except >> that company, all of the upper management are very concerned about how >> on track is the company with the projections on a month by month >> basis. ÂThey all wanted daily, weekly, and monthly reports. ÂThat >> company didn't ask for any. >> >>> >>> ÂÂWe all have cross >>>> discipline experience and train ourselves in areas we lack for basic >>>> support. >>> >>> Not going to argue there, see my response from experience above. >>> >>> ÂEvery one of us don't have a problem taking a month vacation >>> >>> >>> Vacation in IT is an oxymoron, and so is intellectual unavailability, >>> especially with the current interconnectivity. >>> >> >> Is it? ÂIn one of my job experience, a director once asked me why he >> didn't see any problems from my area. ÂI simply told him that if he >> did, then I wasn't be doing my job. > > Maybe by 'problems' he meant other than what you think are problems. > ANd maybe he thinks your job is to report maybe employee unhapiness, > instead of employee misbehavior, maybe the miscommunication is in > terminology of the word "problem" > What I think the problem is when things aren't working as expected to meet the needs of the business. That could be technical hardware failure, bug in application code, application isn't returning the expected data (corrupted data?), etc. Misbehavior, unhappiness and mis-communication of the employee(s) are the responsibility of supervisors, managers, and HR. I wasn't any of those. So it begs me why he asked me. I asked him after my reply, 'did you expect problems?' He said that person I replaced always had problems with the systems. Before you state 'the question implies whether if I have any problems with other folks'. I don't. As part of the job, isn't it expected of you to get along with others, whether it's behavior or miscommunication, in addition to doing the assigned task properly, regardless if you're an employee or a contractor? > ÂÂThat being said. ÂDoing your job >> means that you should still have a peace of mind to take a vacation or >> sleep better at night. > > But how does the client take peace of mind when you're unavailable? > Like I said, well design and built application/system/network wouldn't have any major problems. The minor problem could be resolved by your peers as I've stated before. All of the Windows systems under my control never had to be rebooted because of an application problem and what not, including development and test boxes. I only had to reboot Windows when there's a major update. I don't reboot for minor update. They run for months regardless of what's running on it, even if it means for me to get involve with others, DBA and developers, to help them resolve the issue. For some folks I've known, their solution is reboot, especially in cases of memory leaks from the application, and that's on the production box... Funny thing is that box is at the facility I worked. They won't even consider our offer to help them fix the problem properly so it didn't have to be rebooted. > > >> >>>> out of the country when the other 2 to provide 24/7 support for the >>>> facility. ÂFolks at other sites worries even if they try to take 2 >>>> weeks vacation and that's not even leaving country. ÂHow fast and well >>>> do you someone can be cross trained to learn C? > > I can spit the same thing out in php, as well as in C with very little > reference to either. > >>> >>> Learn on the fly is hard, but easy if you like crash courses. >>> >>> >>> ÂÂEven if just basic >>>> support? > > Define basic support, I barely ask questions, and I read docs mostly. > I might take longer, but it cost way less to educate me, than compared > to some of my collegiate peers. This is what I defined as basic support. If you're the application developer and on vacation, the users were wondering why the reports are not coming. Or the application doesn't seem to be 'responding for some reason'. One must know the basics to do some troubleshooting and whether if it's fixable immediately or escalate it. With a well designed and coded application, it should be fixable immediately. > >>> >>> You can't get a text message on holiday? >>> >>>> >>>> As for printf, PHP has that and print. >>> >>> Semantics, but not a logical programming focal point for a >>> multi-language project. >>> >>> ÂRegarding learning and using >>>> C, I had only 1 quarter of it in college and that was back in the >>>> early '90s. ÂI don't remember C as an 'over complicated in an >>>> optimization standpoint', IIRC, I just had problems with memory >>>> optimization, but that's another issue. >>> >>> You have x available, and you allocate z. Optimization is like I said, >>> just a refinement of the print to browser of headers and code. All you >>> have to do initially is the php/html/js/css, and then spit it out. >>> Then you refine the individual. What real C are you using until you >>> get to the optimization And you're still seeing php as the center of >>> languages. And all of the programming world is flat to you. Just plane >>> PHP. >>> >> >> I guess I'll have to spend a few more quarters/semester learning C to >> understand your meaning of C usage for optimization. ÂThough in the >> past, I've never had problems optimization any code, in terms of # of >> lines and execution time, written in any single language - Basic, >> Pascal, ADA, or C. ÂAnd no, the programming world to me is not just >> PHP. ÂWhen I recently got back into programming, I compared some of >> the languages - PHP, ASP.NET (C#), and Java. ÂEach has it's own >> uniqueness. ÂAnd all were written in C at the core. >> > > I said that, as in ancestory, and I meant as a standing point for > optimization. And I don't think you get that If in the end you'll move > toward it, then why not start out at the prototypes base roots. A > simple printf starts the whole process for your browser > interpretation, and if you knew so much, you'd know that. > I fully understand your implications. That's why I said I need a few more quarters/semesters. One quarter of C doesn't qualify to use it at its optimal level, IMO. That's like saying knowing the fundamentals of PHP, I can fully exploit PHP's potential. Case in point. I don't have to know classes, objects, abstracts, interfaces, soap, etc.. but I could still write a good PHP application. But knowing the rest, I could write an excellent application. So if I want to use C as part of the optimization process that you suggest, shouldn't know I most of it, if not everything, to use it for optimization? Or you implying to use PHP's printf, a PHP implementation of C's? If that's the case, I do use it along with sprintf where's the desired functionality is. > >>> ÂÂBut I haven't used it since >>>> other than scanning the some source code for compilations W(A/I)MP x64 >>>> stack. ÂAbout optimization, isn't it more in terms of modular design >>>> then including more languages than is necessary? ÂIf PHP is sluggish, >>>> wouldn't be best to bring it up to the PHP developers? >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> SQL = back end data storage >>>>>> PHP = processing input/output, including back end data >>>>>> HTML/XML = document layout for nice hierarchical format >>>>>> JS/Flash = client side effects and processing to offload some server load >>>>>> >>>>>> Each already designed and made to do the the specific function and are >>>>>> nicely coupled together. ÂFrom the above, I've yet to see the need to >>>>>> write C code for the PHP based application - with the exception of >>>>>> threads, and let's not get into it again... lol. >>>>>> > It's not a 'hard coded' C, it's just a print to the page with C as the > conveyor for each. You can then utilize C to partition each language > for refinement in the overall. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- > -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
