Tony Marston wrote:
"Stuart" <stuttle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:a5f019de0901181015g5e2db21fn2782839ab964858b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx2009/1/18 Tony Marston <tony@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:"Nathan Rixham" <nrixham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:497366F5.2030803@xxxxxxxxxxxxTony Marston wrote:agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words alone."Skip Evans" <skip@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:49723137.2010202@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxWow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express yourselfwith just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone?Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his wayto come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner. Tony Marston wrote:Absolute rubbish!There's just no need to insult other list members like this.Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult. Calling him a moron would be, but I did not.(you did say I was feeble brained though..)Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less productive than they could be.And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular programming style would be productive? I think not.you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and increase the scope where I can use php.It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good questions,What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal needs.inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase,yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my productivityit can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_ and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for php such as the one in symphony.lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists? And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the list entirely.If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tiredfrom reading posts such as this which say "I'm used to language X, and myfeeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be changed to behave like language X?"there you go with the feeble minded again tony..a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and votes.Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looksand feels more like his current language of choice simply because he cannotcope with the differences is feeble minded.And I think any participant on this list who cannot reasonably respond to perfectly reasonable suggestionsIn case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of suggested "improvements" to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my opinion that these "improvements" would be a waste of time as they would add nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have expressed any support for any of these "improvements"?
you know; other than type hinting of primatives and the ability to type hint that a method argument - no they haven't; which has actually really suprised me tbh - I was just thinking if I compeltely renamed and simplified the post what the outcome would be.. I think it may be suprising, people can be very fickle over terminology (and change).
without resorting to child-like name-calling should reconsider their personal brand. Every time I see you "contribute" to this list you manage to lessen the respect I have for you as a person nevermind as a developer. PHP would not have the OO capabilities it has if developers hadn't compared it to other languages and said.... "yes, that would be a useful addition". Improvements don't happen without inspiration, and definitely won't happen if people feel threatened when they make suggestions.As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to changeb: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and hasbeen for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex problemson this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php, contribute to open source projects and release packages which many thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many otherlanguages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm not so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, it'snot - but it's a damn good language. c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new *optional* functionality.PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing atthe flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it orswitch to a different language.I don't recall seeing anyone say it's not feasible, just that it comes with costs other PHP developers might not be happy with. Performance makes it tricky, BC could make it tricky and there's probably a whole bunch of other issues that might make it difficult, but it's certainly possible."not be feasible" covers "loss of performance", "loss of BC" and "a whole bunch of other issues". If the cost of implementing your "improvements" is not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered?
well if there was a loss of bc a big bunch of issues and a markable loss to performance then no; it's not worth it. However until these are all investigated and made known by the internals team they aren't an issue and thus this should be considered.
personally i can't see how bc would be broken, if it was going to be it would have been when type hinting method arguments was introduced (?) loss of performance, can't see that either since the interpreter already checks for keywords like static in all the places mentioned, and if a typehint wasn't found then surely the functionality to deal with the types would be bypassed (?) further.. well to quote a wikipedia page on type systems, under the subtopic of optimization: "For example, if a type requires that a value must align in memory at a multiple of 4 bytes, the compiler may be able to use more efficient machine instructions." - in this case it would be the interpreter (?)
again though; think this would be for the internals to discuss should they wish or see fit.
As far as your "if I can do it why can't you" comment goes, I don't think anything has been said that would imply Nathan is not just as capable of developing complex systems as you think you are. He has expressed a wish for some additional features in PHP because he's used other languages with those features and he likes them. Does this mean he's inexperienced or incapable? No, and it's a shame you can't see past the end of your superiority complex and acknowledge that.I never said that I am superior, just that the lack of these requested features has not stopped me, or many other PHP programmers I would imagine, from writing large, complex applications with PHP. I have used many languages in my 35+ year career, and I am far more productive with PHP than I have been with all the others.
snap.. hence why I'd see a benefit in being able to use php in more scenarios (ones which need some static typing / type hinting of properties and variables) - it's all to benefit php and us developers..
I swear I've never replied so much to a topic - are you any where near saying either "i can see how this feature would be useful" or even "I'm not opposed on the proviso that it has no markable impact on current php usage or existing application performance" - are you tony? are you?
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