Actually I didn't take it personally, till you called me arrogant. Frankly we may not disagree nearly as much as you think. First if you are happier overseas, good for you. That is what freedom is all about. Its the freedom to choose. What would be far worse is to stay somewhere where one isn't either appreciated, fairly compensated for their efforts, or otherwise unhappy for any of a number of reasons. Not every form of instruction works with everyone, just as not every one is cut out for a particular occupation or job. Now we disagree on the effect of a profit motive. Profit is a very very powerful motivator. That's not a bad thing. The creative and inventive minds can exist everywhere, but the greatest numbers of those types of thinkers tend to group where they can see the rewards for their efforts. Now its not the only motivator. Handel wrote the Messiah in 28 days for another very powerful motivator. The trivia question of the week is why? Honestly many people these days expect immediate results with minimal effort. Who hasn't seen students that want you in 30 minutes to depart 30 years worth of photographic experience with no effort on the student's part. It doesn't work that way any more than most companies won't pay top wages for 30 to 35 hours a week. Now I am in complete agreement that where an education is received is not a guarantee that one will better prepared for a particular job. I personally would rather work with someone that has taught themselves with drive and determination than a student that was spoon fed in a classroom. I think we agree that many in the outside world doesn't necessarily see it that way. In most types of work, the ability to work in the real world is often not taught. Who hasn't seen the brilliant man that didn't have walking around sense. Same thing applies in photography as well. My latest experience is that rather than put in the effort, they would rather spend extra money to get a camera that would do everything for them. The study of human reactions can be fascinating. The more you watch the more you learn. Frankly a while back a couple was insulting everything around me, and insulted me while asking for directions. My directions were simple. Go up 4 blocks, take a left. Go 2 blocks take a left. Go 4 more blocks take a left. Go two blocks and you will be standing right in front of it on your left. They were so smart they walked it, and I just laughed the whole time. One thing I have noticed about all good photographers is they tend to be excellent problem solvers. They likely will not solve the problem the same way. Yet give them a set of challenges, a group of tools to work with, and most good photographers can make something positive with what they have available. --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Trevor Cunningham <tr_cunningham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > From: Trevor Cunningham <tr_cunningham@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: Re: Online studies? Correspondence studies? > To: "List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - Students" <photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 1:54 PM > wow...perhaps your arrogance has gone untested...to quote > you: "If you feel that what you are being asked to do > as a part of your job is > excessive, you are perfectly free to go find work > elsewhere." 1) Not sure I remember saying anything > about the requirements of my job, or the complaints of > others in this respect 2) I grew up with that bullshit > "if you don't like it, you can leave" > mentality...to be honest, three weeks after Bush Jr. was > inaugurated, I signed a contract to work overseas...I did > leave, and life is a lot better, thank you. 3) The profit > as incentive argument is as myopic as its long term > application in society. > > Just one question, since you brought the subject up...What > is a hard work? > > I've met too many Harvard grads who complained that > grades there are artificial and corruptible. I've > always pleasured in watching these prodigal sons make > fantastic asses of themselves with their father's money > and suck up their pride on a bed of money. Indeed, they get > the jobs, and they have the money...but how does this relate > to what a person learns about photography? > > I'm sorry you took it so personally. > > "somewhere between zero and one...everything else is > exaggeration" - Anonymous > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark Blackwell <mblackwell1958@xxxxxxxxx> > To: List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - > Students <photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:45:13 PM > Subject: Re: Online studies? Correspondence studies? > > Trevor I think you to a point are on the right track. My > experience is that if the STUDENT wants the knowledge bad > enough, Micky Minnie and Donald with help from Hewey Dewey > and Louie could teach the class and the student will learn. > Perception of that education is often though as much or more > important. That perception is what is going to open the > door and give one the chance to use that knowledge. Now the > really driven student with Donald, Huey Dewey, and Louie as > instructors may actually be smarter, more knowledgeable and > better able to put that knowledge to work in the real world > that a graduate from an Ivy league school, but the Ivy > league grad is more likely to get the job because of > perception. Its just life. > > Some would consider our society "obsessed with a > buck" and for a few individuals and companies that is > true. Yet the ethic of hard work is what built this country > and for many areas of the world that attitude just does not > exist. Hard work is mis understood as obsessed with a buck. > Agreed it sometimes can be a fine line, and often its not > always a clear line. It is also important to remember that > no one is required to stay on the same job. If you feel > that what you are being asked to do as a part of your job is > excessive, you are perfectly free to go find work elsewhere. > Companies that overwork their employees find this to be a > big problem. Yet its the profit that comes from hard work > that has driven some of the greatest advances in the history > of mankind and there is (IMHO) absolutely nothing wrong with > that. > > > --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Trevor Cunningham > <tr_cunningham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > From: Trevor Cunningham > <tr_cunningham@xxxxxxxxx> > > Subject: Re: Online studies? Correspondence studies? > > To: "List for Photo/Imaging Educators - > Professionals - Students" > <photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 12:00 AM > > I'm currently at the end of a Master's degree > in > > Educational Technology that has been conducted 100% > online. > > Although, I often have to purchase texts to go with > the > > class. As a matter of fact, there was even a digital > > imaging elective I had the option of taking for the > degree, > > but I opted out of the class because it had very > little to > > do with my emphasis. Which brings me to my point. As > an > > American overseas, I've come to learn how obsessed > our > > culture is with value for the dollar. Also, as an > educator, > > I am consistently shocked by what people consider to > be a > > "good school". To put these two > observations > > together, it really boils down to objectives. The > person > > that will truly succeed is the same person who began > with > > intended outcomes. A little research into a > course/program > > will tell you if it is of benefit to you. As to the > > "bang for your buck" mentality, the value of > > education is completely personal, subjective, and > relates > > directly to what > > you hoped to learn/achieve in the first place. I > could > > certainly imagine a course from the NYIP being either > an > > amazing experience or a complete waste of time and > money. > > I've actually found some online tutorials to be > very > > enriching and easy on the pocket, though very light in > > academic prestige. > > > > "somewhere between zero and one...everything > else is > > exaggeration" - Anonymous > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: our family account <mywebacct@xxxxxxxxxxx> > > To: List for Photo/Imaging Educators - Professionals - > > Students <photoforum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:18:07 PM > > Subject: Re: Online studies? Correspondence studies? > > > > > > What are peoples thoughts on correspondence studies > such > > as New York Institute of Photography? You actually > get > > hard copy > > ,material, have access to "teachers", and > can > > send in photos for > > evaluation? > > > > > > On Aug 15, 2008, at 4:16 PM, Gregory wrote: > > > > I personally havn't found on-line education to be > much > > more than tutorials...you get what you pay for. I > myself > > plan to attend the Sante Fe workshops soon if I can, > > hopefully March '09. > > > > Jock Sturgess is one of several headlined educators. > Cost? > > A whooping $3k for the progam alone. Of course for > that > > money, I could instead, upgrade to a > D700._jjeeeessshhhhh! > > > > Take care out there, > > Gregory > > www.fireframeimaging.com > > www.ebbtidegalleryofgifts.com > > http://soundexposure.org > > > > > > "Expose for the secrets, > > Develop for the surprises!"
