you're preeching to the converted here. fact is there's a big market out there for the microsoft way of doing things. And, make no mistake that's why microsoft has the market share it does. The simple fact is $user out there wants things done automatically. and that means all hardware has to work out of the box and more than likely a technission has to put it all together and set it all up for them. $user out there just wants to turn the damn thing on and go. They don't give a fuck what's under the hood. we do, and we know better but unfortunately that's the way of the world. -- Shaun Oliver "I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person." email: shaun.oliver at optusnet.com.au WEB: http://blindman.homelinux.org/~blindman/ IRC: irc.awesomechat.net:6666 IRCNICK: blindman