Yes, I tried to make that point albeit I was probably a bit overzealous ha! this is very exciting though as in the longrun, it will afford better Accessibility in a windowed environment. Amanda Lee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Ward" <tward@xxxxxxxxxx> To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:28 PM Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > Sure go ahead. I think we need to get this cleared up. It is important to > let them know that x is not anything like windows from a programming > standpoint. > Oh, sure the desktops like Gnome have icons, buttons, dialogs, etc however > from a programming standpoint they are completely different. > MSAA was MS's way of making up for closing the barn door after the horse was > out. As Kirk stated in a post Linux tries to standardize all kinds of > things, and that standardization will pay off in the long run fas far as > access is concerned. Assuming Gnopernicus is written properly, and > everything works as expected. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net> > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:45 PM > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > > > > Thank you. I will, if you don't mind, cross post this to the ACB list > > because there is some mis-information presented. This is what I was > looking > > for ha! How refreshing from a software developer's background and as a > > blind user, how utterly like a breath of clean fresh air! > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net> > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:35 PM > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > > > > > > > Hi, let me come at this from another angle. In the Windows world a piece > > of > > > software is written, and the company then expects the screen reader > > > manufacturer to modify their screen reader to support their app. Some > such > > > as Microslop include MSAA support to help the screen reader along after > > the > > > fact. > > > In Gnome 2 we want to write the screen reader, and sstandardize all the > > tool > > > kits, documentation, and even the sample source code to clearly show > > someone > > > how to write an an accessible app, or to upgrade their app so that it > > works > > > with Gnopernicus. So rather than making the screen reader work with the > > app > > > we want the desktop and apps to work with the screen reader. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Amanda Lee <amanda at shellworld.net> > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:00 PM > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > So in broad terms, the features are equivalent to MSAA? However, > > there's > > > a > > > > cleaner interface than what MSAA provides because of the overal > > > > standardization of what is already standardized in Linux??? > > > > > > > > > > > > Amanda Lee > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Thomas Ward" <tward at bright.net> > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:43 PM > > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi. Wo, hold on here! > > > > > > > > > > Ok, let me explain what we are doing with Gnome to clarify things. > > > First, > > > > > the gtk tool kit, from which Gnome is written in, is being > rewritten > > so > > > > > that anyone using the standard controls, widgets, etc will build > > > > accessible > > > > > apps from the get go. Gnome has also been upgraded with speech hooks > > > that > > > > > will tell the screen reader what is being presented. Finally, Sun > will > > > be > > > > > introducing something like the Java Access bridge so that > Gnopernicus > > > can > > > > > handle Java applications under Linux. Does this clear things up? > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Charles Crawford <ccrawford at acb.org> > > > > > To: <speakup at braille.uwo.ca> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:27 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: Needs educating: Message from Linux (fwd) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks. I understand what you are saying. Does this > mean > > > that > > > > > > there would not be a fix for X-Windows like the MSAA in Windows? > > > Would > > > > we > > > > > > need some kind of major off-screen model? > > > > > > > > > > > > -- charlie Crawford. > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:09 AM 1/22/02 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > >Actually, being familiar with X myself, I'll answer this one. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Xwindows, is a misnomer, in reality, it's just an X server, and > > > > clients. > > > > > The > > > > > > >server draws to the screen, and sends user input to the clients. > > The > > > > > clients > > > > > > >are the applications, the clients are usually on the same machine > > as > > > > the > > > > > > >server, but they don't have to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >X itself is nothing more than a network protocol for sending > > graphic > > > > data > > > > > to > > > > > > >an X workstation, the X protocol has no provisions for button, > text > > > > box, > > > > > or > > > > > > >any widgets for that matter, it has: line, circle, filled circle, > > > > > rectangle, > > > > > > >filled rectangle, pixmap, etc... > > > > > > > > > > > > > >X also sends keyboard input and mouse click locations to the > > > > applications > > > > > > >that own the windows they occur in. Beyond that, X's only other > > > > > capability > > > > > > >is to send text glyphs (rendered in a given font) back to > > > applications > > > > > that > > > > > > >request them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >As for widgets, and controls, and a nice unified API for writing > > > > > programs, > > > > > > >you need a "toolkit library". What's a toolkit library you ask? A > > > > better > > > > > > >question might be "what isn't a toolkit library?" > > > > > > >First of all, there are a lot of toolkit libraries out there, > some > > > are > > > > > very > > > > > > >simple (Athena) while some have a full-blown callback API and can > > be > > > > > adjusted > > > > > > >with themes (GTK, GTK+) and some are object-oriented C++ based > APIs > > > > (QT). > > > > > > >They all basically do the same thing, provide > > > > > functions/objects/structures to > > > > > > >the application to draw typical GUI widgets, and send draw > requests > > > to > > > > > the X > > > > > > >server. Here's the hairy part, each toolkit has its own look and > > > feel, > > > > > has > > > > > > >its own API, has its own conventions, and basically has its own > > > > > everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There's also the seperate window manager, which is simply another > X > > > > > client > > > > > > >which registers a few special functions with the X server so it > can > > > get > > > > > the > > > > > > >location and owner of each window and add decorations and task > > > > switching > > > > > > >behavior. Some (most) window managers do more than this, but they > > all > > > > do > > > > > at > > > > > > >least this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Windows, on the other had, has the equivalent of the toolkit > > library > > > > and > > > > > > >window manager built into the kernel (sort of) and most > > applications > > > > > either > > > > > > >use that, or a custom one that is very similar to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I'm sure this is incomplete, but I've already been wracking my > > brain > > > > for > > > > > an > > > > > > >hour over it, so I'll close here, feel free to ask questions or > > tell > > > me > > > > > about > > > > > > >parts that are unclear. > > > > > > > > Good to see you on this list. I wonder if there are > some > > > > folks > > > > > > > out there > > > > > > > > familiar with XWindows to share the kind of navigation that > goes > > > on > > > > > with > > > > > > > > it? I have no idea. Is it the same icons and rdio buttons > and > > > all > > > > of > > > > > > > > tht? How is it different than windows and how much more easy > > > would > > > > > access > > > > > > > > be to develop in the XWindows environment? These are > important > > > > > questions > > > > > > > > to your point I imagine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > >Speakup mailing list > > > > > > >Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > >http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Speakup mailing list > > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speakup mailing list > > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speakup mailing list > > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > > > _______________________________________________ > Speakup mailing list > Speakup at braille.uwo.ca > http://speech.braille.uwo.ca/mailman/listinfo/speakup > >
