On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 17:38, Shayne O'Connor wrote:
> Lee Revell wrote:
> > On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 12:47 -0700, eviltwin69@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:34 , Lee Revell <rlrevell@xxxxxxxxxxx> sent:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Mon, 2005-07-25 at 10:46 +0200, Mario Lang wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>That is the point, I absolutely dont feel reading up on something
> >>>>is necessarily a bad thing. My hair stand up if I watch
> >>>>a typical no-clue windows user more or less randomly hitting
> >>>>buttons in the interface until "something" works. I do feel this
> >>>>"it has to work out of the box without me having to know anything
> >>>>about it" attitude is childish.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>I disagree violently with this line of reasoning. Software should
> >>>ALWAYS work the way the user expects it to unless there is a DAMN GOOD
> >>>REASON, for example if you are offering a much more powerful interface
> >>>than the user is used to.
> >>>
> >>>For example, most apps (Firefox and IE) use "Ctrl-F" to 'Find in page'.
> >>>Except Evolution, which forces you to use "Ctrl-S" to 'Find (Search) in
> >>>page', because they have already bound Ctrl-F to 'Forward message'.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ah, but Ctrl-S has been search in all versions of Emacs for the last couple
> >>of decades. I think that predates IE and Firefox. They must not have felt like
> >>doing it in the normal way ;-) And you don't need to point out that Emacs isn't
> >>a browser since Evolution isn't one either.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Correct, but I'm talking about the modern UNIX GUI desktop, the one that
> > we expect to be intuitive to Mac and Windows users. You know, KDE or
> > Gnome, Firefox, OpenOffice, Evolution or kmail. The type of stuff that
> > will meet the needs of 99% of computer users (yes we all know we are in
> > the other 1%). For better or for worse, Emacs is not a part of that.
> >
>
> too true ... i've gotten the idea from this thread that emacs is a
> really powerful editor, that can do many a thing ... however, i'm too
> busy figuring out how to install/configure programs to actually learn
> how to use it. i mean, there should be *some* parts of linux that are
> "plug-n-play" ... especially a text editor!!!!
>
Xemacs and Gnu Emacs are both definitely plug-n-play (God I hate
that term). They have little buttons and pull-down menus for all of the
things you want to do. Once you learn Emacs you can fly with the
shortcuts. Xemacs is actually as much an IDE as it is an editor.
> now, if you've been using linux for years and years, chances are that
> you will be an expert in emacs ... however, a huge majority of people
> are coming to linux only *now* - after the establishment of the will to
> usability on the linux desktop with KDE, GNOME etc. so, with a graphical
> environment that is now *very* similar on first glance to windows, *a
> lot* of new users will expect that the applications they want to use
> will "just work". there is nothing wrong with this, indeed it is the
> sort of expectation that is currently being pushed in the wider community.
If they're new you certainly don't want them using vi ;-) Maybe
vim.
There is nothing wrong with having more intuitive interfaces. No
one here has suggested that at all. But, in this case, if you want more
intuitive interfaces in Ardour, JAMin, Rosegarden, or whatever, you have
a few choices. You can either roll up your sleeves and get in there and
make mods yourself (send patches back to the maintainers); you can send
money to the maintainers and ask for features; or you can whine about it
constantly. Option number three is always the easiest and it
occasionally gets something done ;-) Valid suggestions like "Shouldn't
this shortcut be Ctrl-X-Ctrl-S instead of Ctrl-X-Alt-S" will probably be
discussed and may get something done but only after discussion on the
lists. General scatter gun criticism will generally just get you
ignored or flamed. I try not to tell Paul how to do things ;-) I did
bitch about the new color scheme last time but that was something *I*
(or possibly Doug McClain ;-) could do something about. Paul didn't
have to do anything. So, my suggestion to anyone who thinks that
Ardour's interface should be completely redone to match whatever Windoze
app they like is to slow down, regroup, suggest specific changes that
you think might help, and if the developers are too busy either get into
it yourself or send money to Paul.
--
Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
The Fuzzy Dice
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html
"As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be
glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this
we should do freely and generously."
Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of
Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744
