On October 23, 2020 at 2:29:58 PM, Stakanov
(stakanov@xxxxxxxxxxx(mailto:stakanov@xxxxxxxxxxx)) wrote:
> In data venerdì 23 ottobre 2020 19:49:48 CEST, kkde@xxxxxxxxxxx ha scritto:
> > On Fri, 23 Oct 2020 17:53:48 +0200
> >
> > Adrien Glauser wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA512
> > >
> > > Hi again,
> > >
> > > If no one on this list is available for discussing the topic quoted
> > > below, would you guys be so kind as to point me to the right people?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > >
> > > Adrien
> > >
> > > Le jeudi 22 octobre 2020 à 22:53 +0200, Adrien Glauser a écrit :
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I am part of a group of volunteers helping our distribution update
> > > > the user documentation, with the goal of improving the learning
> > > > experience for new users.
> > > >
> > > > Now we all know Plasma has made tremendous progress with the wayland
> > > > and xwayland sessions . Unfortunately, as far as our support channels
> > > > are concerned, these improvements might not be readily enjoyable for
> > > > Nvidia users -- which is not surprising after all, as the meme says.
> > > > (Here I am talking about people who installed the proprietary driver,
> > > > typically for a laptop with both an Intel integrated and Nvidia
> > > > dedicated GPU. In this email I am talking about this category of
> > > > users, and about no other category).
> > > >
> > > > Thus we want to make recommendations to our new users, whether fresh
> > > > switchers from the non-Linux world, or Linux users coming from the
> > > > GNOME world, where full wayland sessions are working OK for most
> > > > including the category I am talking about.
> > > >
> > > > To make this assumption very clear: We feel like purely descriptive
> > > > information is not enough, because users are owed clear disclaimers
> > > > and warning signs when there is a live possibility that their sub
> > > > menus will be glitching and logoff process freezing. For us it's not
> > > > just about QA, it's also about basic respect for people who accepted
> > > > to get out their comfort zone to step into the Linux world.
> > > >
> > > > Bearing in mind this context, I am asking you the following: What is
> > > > the most honest and accurate thing to say to these users? Should we
> > > > either:
> > > >
> > > > a) Recommend the xorg session (because it's the most stable), and
> > > > make
> > > > no other recommendation? (saying for example that the QA testing
> > > > around
> > > > the other two is lacking, or something along these lines?)
> > > >
> > > > b) Recommend the xorg session, and recommend against the xwayland and
> > > > wayland? (saying what I believe to be true, that is, that the other
> > > > two
> > > > sessions make it impossible for them to experience Plasma as it is
> > > > meant to be)
> > > >
> > > > c) Recommend all sessions in the sense that, contrary to my belief
> > > > and
> > > > knowledge, there actually is first-hand QA data supporting the idea
> > > > that all three sessions are OK for these users?
> > > >
> > > > I am putting this out with an open mind, so please correct me if I am
> > > > not portraying Plasma UX accurately. I am just trying to work with
> > > > the
> > > > evidence I have, and to use it as best as I can for our users.
> > > >
> > > > Also if you wonder why I am not writing to the Promo team at KDE
> > > > don't
> > > > wonder anymore: I have, and they acknowledge that this issue is a
> > > > little bit off their department.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers and thanks for reading,
> > > >
> > > > Adrien
> >
> > If you're aiming at new users I guess they would
> > have an even stricter expectation than I do and
> > I'm neither guru nor novice. From my perspective
> > anything that isn't bulletproof belongs in development,
> > period. I came to Linux because I want to be able
> > to do some cLi and customization and for the implied
> > security of open-sorce far from Redmond, I definitely
> > didn't do so to become a developper.
> I am not sure if I am the correct person to speak here, as I am an average
> user (that is, not a developer).
>
> As for your question.
> I currently warn all people assisted by me against the use of wayland because
> the experience is, in my view, too troublesome.
> Somebody with experience understands how to investigate on F10 the output,
> makes a dmesg or looks up cat /var/log/messages or journalctl.
> But a newbie simply states: it sucks! because not understanding that this is
> an epochal change.
> Now for one this is bad for the wayland development (because nobody
> complaining is not going to fix it) but a newbie will not be able to a) file a
> reasonable bug report, b) will not understand if the issue is a bug or pebkac.
> The latter would cause a lot of noise and also a bad reputation for KDE (which
> has already its highlights with akonadi/PIM.
>
> Second: as a learner / speaker of Chinese, I am using fcitx. As far as I know,
> as of the current development, there is no way to reasonably use either fcitx
> or ibus with wayland. I know for sure that fcitx does not work.
> So whatever statement for plasma should make clear that users relying of fcitx
> / ibus for daily operation should choose x.
>
> A point that raises constant questions and confusion is the understanding
> (existential doubt) about a) multiple desktops, b) activities (main part of
> people I do know do not really use it, I suspect because not understanding
> what it is and not having especially usage examples.
> And finally people coming from the window world are somewhat not used to multi
> users system work. They also have difficulty to link the world of CLI to the
> Plasma desktop, so once they see a terminal window, they will need more
> explanation as of why they should use CLI WITH plasma desktop as opposed to
> CLI instead of.
>
> Sorry if this is redundant information or if I did completely reply "off
> topic" because not understanding correctly what is your real question.
> Hope that goes at least in the right direction of your question.
>
>
In the VDG we work with the Human Interface Guidelines that tell users
how to interact with the system. The documentation placed there is
informational in nature. From what I can gather, you seem to be
looking for support information. If that doesn’t exist at the moment,
maybe some of our team members could help put it together.
I would also say that our team in Marketing would probably have a good
idea about how to communicate effectively and they might also be able
to help.
Can you confirm the type of information you need?
Andy (anditosan)
