On Fri, 2021-12-03 at 14:08 +0100, Christian König wrote: > Am 01.12.21 um 13:16 schrieb Thomas Hellström (Intel): > > > > On 12/1/21 12:25, Christian König wrote: > > > Am 01.12.21 um 12:04 schrieb Thomas Hellström (Intel): > > > > > > > > On 12/1/21 11:32, Christian König wrote: > > > > > Am 01.12.21 um 11:15 schrieb Thomas Hellström (Intel): > > > > > > [SNIP] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we could do is to avoid all this by not calling the > > > > > > > callback > > > > > > > with the lock held in the first place. > > > > > > > > > > > > If that's possible that might be a good idea, pls also see > > > > > > below. > > > > > > > > > > The problem with that is > > > > > dma_fence_signal_locked()/dma_fence_signal_timestamp_locked() > > > > > . If > > > > > we could avoid using that or at least allow it to drop the > > > > > lock > > > > > then we could call the callback without holding it. > > > > > > > > > > Somebody would need to audit the drivers and see if holding > > > > > the > > > > > lock is really necessary anywhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, and a follow up question: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If there was a way to break the recursion on final > > > > > > > > > > put() > > > > > > > > > > (using the same basic approach as patch 2 in this > > > > > > > > > > series uses > > > > > > > > > > to break recursion in enable_signaling()), so that > > > > > > > > > > none of > > > > > > > > > > these containers did require any special treatment, > > > > > > > > > > would it > > > > > > > > > > be worth pursuing? I guess it might be possible by > > > > > > > > > > having the > > > > > > > > > > callbacks drop the references rather than the loop > > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > final put. + a couple of changes in code iterating > > > > > > > > > > over the > > > > > > > > > > fence pointers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That won't really help, you just move the recursion > > > > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > > > final put into the callback. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do we recurse from the callback? The introduced > > > > > > > > fence_put() > > > > > > > > of individual fence pointers > > > > > > > > doesn't recurse anymore (at most 1 level), and any > > > > > > > > callback > > > > > > > > recursion is broken by the irq_work? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, but then you would need to take another lock to > > > > > > > avoid > > > > > > > racing with dma_fence_array_signaled(). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I figure the big amount of work would be to adjust code > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > iterates over the individual fence pointers to > > > > > > > > recognize that > > > > > > > > they are rcu protected. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could be that we could solve this with RCU, but that > > > > > > > sounds like > > > > > > > a lot of churn for no gain at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words even with the problems solved I think it > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > a really bad idea to allow chaining of dma_fence_array > > > > > > > objects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that was really the question, Is it worth pursuing > > > > > > this? I'm > > > > > > not really suggesting we should allow this as an > > > > > > intentional > > > > > > feature. I'm worried, however, that if we allow these > > > > > > containers > > > > > > to start floating around cross-driver (or even internally) > > > > > > disguised as ordinary dma_fences, they would require a lot > > > > > > of > > > > > > driver special casing, or else completely unexpeced > > > > > > WARN_ON()s and > > > > > > lockdep splats would start to turn up, scaring people off > > > > > > from > > > > > > using them. And that would be a breeding ground for hairy > > > > > > driver-private constructs. > > > > > > > > > > Well the question is why we would want to do it? > > > > > > > > > > If it's to avoid inter driver lock dependencies by avoiding > > > > > to call > > > > > the callback with the spinlock held, then yes please. We had > > > > > tons > > > > > of problems with that, resulting in irq_work and work_item > > > > > delegation all over the place. > > > > > > > > Yes, that sounds like something desirable, but in these > > > > containers, > > > > what's causing the lock dependencies is the enable_signaling() > > > > callback that is typically called locked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's to allow nesting of dma_fence_array instances, then > > > > > it's > > > > > most likely a really bad idea even if we fix all the locking > > > > > order > > > > > problems. > > > > > > > > Well I think my use-case where I hit a dead end may illustrate > > > > what > > > > worries me here: > > > > > > > > 1) We use a dma-fence-array to coalesce all dependencies for > > > > ttm > > > > object migration. > > > > 2) We use a dma-fence-chain to order the resulting dm_fence > > > > into a > > > > timeline because the TTM resource manager code requires that. > > > > > > > > Initially seemingly harmless to me. > > > > > > > > But after a sequence evict->alloc->clear, the dma-fence-chain > > > > feeds > > > > into the dma-fence-array for the clearing operation. Code still > > > > works fine, and no deep recursion, no warnings. But if I were > > > > to add > > > > another driver to the system that instead feeds a dma-fence- > > > > array > > > > into a dma-fence-chain, this would give me a lockdep splat. > > > > > > > > So then if somebody were to come up with the splendid idea of > > > > using > > > > a dma-fence-chain to initially coalesce fences, I'd hit the > > > > same > > > > problem or risk illegaly joining two dma-fence-chains together. > > > > > > > > To fix this, I would need to look at the incoming fences and > > > > iterate > > > > over any dma-fence-array or dma-fence-chain that is fed into > > > > the > > > > dma-fence-array to flatten out the input. In fact all > > > > dma-fence-array users would need to do that, and even > > > > dma-fence-chain users watching out for not joining chains > > > > together > > > > or accidently add an array that perhaps came as a disguised > > > > dma-fence from antother driver. > > > > > > > > So the purpose to me would be to allow these containers as > > > > input to > > > > eachother without a lot of in-driver special-casing, be it by > > > > breaking recursion on built-in flattening to avoid > > > > > > > > a) Hitting issues in the future or with existing interoperating > > > > drivers. > > > > b) Avoid driver-private containers that also might break the > > > > interoperability. (For example the i915 currently driver- > > > > private > > > > dma_fence_work avoid all these problems, but we're attempting > > > > to > > > > address issues in common code rather than re-inventing stuff > > > > internally). > > > > > > I don't think that a dma_fence_array or dma_fence_chain is the > > > right > > > thing to begin with in those use cases. > > > > > > When you want to coalesce the dependencies for a job you could > > > either > > > use an xarray like Daniel did for the scheduler or some hashtable > > > like we use in amdgpu. But I don't see the need for exposing the > > > dma_fence interface for those. > > > > This is because the interface to our migration code takes just a > > single dma-fence as dependency. Now this is of course something we > > need to look at to mitigate this, but see below. > > Yeah, that's actually fine. > > > > > > > And why do you use dma_fence_chain to generate a timeline for > > > TTM? > > > That should come naturally because all the moves must be ordered. > > > > Oh, in this case because we're looking at adding stuff at the end > > of > > migration (like coalescing object shared fences and / or async > > unbind > > fences), which may not complete in order. > > Well that's ok as well. My question is why does this single dma_fence > then shows up in the dma_fence_chain representing the whole > migration? What we'd like to happen during eviction is that we 1) await any exclusive- or moving fences, then schedule the migration blit. The blit manages its own GPU ptes. Results in a single fence. 2) Schedule unbind of any gpu vmas, resulting possibly in multiple fences. 3) Most but not all of the remaining resv shared fences will have been finished in 2) We can't easily tell which so we have a couple of shared fences left. 4) Add all fences resulting from 1) 2) and 3) into the per-memory-type dma-fence-chain. 5) hand the resulting dma-fence-chain representing the end of migration over to ttm's resource manager. Now this means we have a dma-fence-chain disguised as a dma-fence out in the wild, and it could in theory reappear as a 3) fence for another migration unless a very careful audit is done, or as an input to the dma-fence-array used for that single dependency. > > That somehow doesn't seem to make sense because each individual step > of > the migration needs to wait for those dependencies as well even when > it > runs in parallel. > > > But that's not really the point, the point was that an (at least to > > me) seemingly harmless usage pattern, be it real or fictious, ends > > up > > giving you severe internal- or cross-driver headaches. > > Yeah, we probably should document that better. But in general I don't > see much reason to allow mixing containers. The dma_fence_array and > dma_fence_chain objects have some distinct use cases and and using > them > to build up larger dependency structures sounds really questionable. Yes, I tend to agree to some extent here. Perhaps add warnings when adding a chain or array as an input to array and when accidently joining chains, and provide helpers for flattening if needed. /Thomas > > Christian. > > > > > /Thomas > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Christian. > > > > > > >
