--On Sunday, 21 July, 2019 08:33 -0400 Warren Kumari <warren@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >... > It feel to me like the IETF is drifting from a culture of > "let's make protocols to make the Internet work better; 'tis > good for all and also fun!" into a much more corporate / "how > can I leverage this organization for my benefit" feel - yes, > companies have always tried to optimize for themselves, but > I'm talking more about the culture / "feeling" of the IETF. It > feels to me[0] like we are moving from (to quote Spencer) "Do > the right thing" to "the rules say I *can* do X, so X is fine > to do..." This is a feeling, and point, I've tried to suggest several times recently in a variety of contexts. Not good, either generally or because our procedures and safeguards are not well-designed for situations in which people are trying to split hairs or beat the system. The other observation about "IETF control" is that, if the IETF is providing the facilities, facilitating the meetings (even by supplying a web page or bulleting board telling that they are being held or where they are) or considering postings about them to IETF lists to be within our rules, then they are most likely IETF discussions or activities . IANAL, but what I was told by lawyers specializing in standards bodies and their legal status many years ago is that activities of standards bodies, at least ones that meet other criteria, are given a certain amount of tolerance. Rules like those of BCP 78 and BCP 79 (they are the source of the rules, the Note Well, no matter how many times we repeat or point to it, is just a pointer and reminder), really protect the recipient. Suppose, for example, that Warren decided to hold a private meeting with someone from a major competitor of Google's, say Baidu. They didn't publicize the meeting, they claimed it was not about IETF business, and Warren explicitly left his AD hat outside the door. Well, they had better be discussing planting potatoes and be able to prove it because, otherwise such a meeting is bait for competitiveness and antitrust regulators. From what I was told "back then", if Goodgle's and Baidu's lawyers haven't warned them about such situations, they aren't doing their jobs. And, at least for that particular situation, claiming that we all participate in IETF as individuals so there is no problem wouldn't pass a laugh test. Have a few others present, keep Warren's hat on, etc., and most likely no problem. Let's not even try to figure out how finely the lines can be drawn. best, john
