On 7/13/19 12:12 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: > IMO, "Alienating" is a very strange word to compare and contrast with > persuasion. I think it's one of several words that can be used to describe what's happening. I do think that the quality of discourse (using both "quality" and "discourse" somewhat broadly, here) in the IETF puts off potential new participants coming from communities where "browbeating," "intimidating," and "hectoring" are not tolerated, and "alienating" applies in that case. Possibly more significantly, bullying is not employed in service to persuasion, but to get the other person to shut up and go away. That's alienation, as well. That's about winning. It absolutely is not about finding the best technical outcome. (It's also antithetical to looking for consensus.) Unfortunately I think the current situation is self-perpetuating, as newer people either model the behavior they see around them or throw their hands up and leave. Melinda -- Melinda Shore melinda.shore@xxxxxxxxx Software longa, hardware brevis
