Re: More guidance and directions for new drafts/comers (was Re: When the IETF can discuss drafts seriously?

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In my (very long) time working with the IETF, I have never heard the IETF deliberative process described quite as well as Keith has done below.   I would strongly urge the IESG to memorialize this verbatim in at least two places - the newcomer's entry page, and (for the last paragraph), the ID submission page.  There may be other places where this text will serve as a warning post against unrealistic expectations.

Note my "verbatim" recommendation - I would avoid the urge to tweak.

Mike

On 1/26/2018 6:43 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
IETF does try to be open to new ideas.  But people bring new ideas to IETF all the time, and statistically speaking, most of those new ideas are bad ideas because they are coming from people without enough exposure to enough  experience that would let them realize that they are bad ideas.   So experienced IETF participants tend to reject bad or dubious ideas in ways that may seem impolite or rude.   This is (mostly) not because they are rude people overall, it is simply because there are so many bad ideas presented here, as a consequence of IETF's openness.

The people who succeed in getting IETF to adopt their ideas are those who are willing to listen to feedback, take it seriously, understand its relevance, and adapt their ideas in light of the feedback.   People who expect to be taken seriously without being willing to do those things tend to not succeed here.   Even good ideas need refinement, and IETF makes decisions by rough consensus.   Someone who isn't willing to listen to feedback will have a difficult time building consensus.   And even when a relatively good idea is presented, community members are less likely to try to help people refine their ideas, if those people seem unwilling to accept constructive feedback and consider compromises.

Also: IETF makes it relatively easy to post an internet-draft.   But posting an internet-draft doesn't do anything but make the draft available for download and send out an announcement to a mailing list.   It doesn't schedule any discussion on the draft, it doesn't refer the draft to any working group, and it doesn't mean that anybody will take it seriously or even read it - whether it's good or not.   That's just how the process works here.   It's how it has to work.  There aren't enough active participants in IETF for every internet-draft to be taken seriously.   We'd never get any work done at all if we undertook an obligation to try to make every proposal successful.

Keith






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