On 20/12/2017 12:31, Joe Touch wrote: > > >> On Dec 19, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> (Or to say it more simply: serve an IETF apprenticeship first. We >> all did that.) >> >> Brian > > I sincerely hope that is not added to the text, nor ever in our minds. > > That view perpetuates seniority over content. We reject kings; I hope we reject elders, if that is their only relevant credential, too. That's not what I said, or at least not what I meant to say. What I meant was that coming into the IETF with naive proposals is close to guaranteeing failure. It's nothing to do with respecting elders; it's to do with the immense complexity of the network. Brian > Ideas are what matter, as does a willingness to listen when asking for feedback. > > Unfortunately, neither has been the case for for these proposals - and that, and only that, is the reason I won’t engage further. If others do the same, I sincerely hope it is only for that reason. > > Joe > > And admittedly, apprenticeship helps us all learn this, but again it should never be a bar. >