> On Dec 19, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > (Or to say it more simply: serve an IETF apprenticeship first. We > all did that.) > > Brian I sincerely hope that is not added to the text, nor ever in our minds. That view perpetuates seniority over content. We reject kings; I hope we reject elders, if that is their only relevant credential, too. Ideas are what matter, as does a willingness to listen when asking for feedback. Unfortunately, neither has been the case for for these proposals - and that, and only that, is the reason I won’t engage further. If others do the same, I sincerely hope it is only for that reason. Joe And admittedly, apprenticeship helps us all learn this, but again it should never be a bar.