we have never voted at IETFs. "we believe in rough consensus and running code" /bill On 1August2013Thursday, at 2:14, A ndy Bierman wrote: > Hi, > > Isn't it obvious why humming is flawed and raising hands works? > (Analog vs. digital). A hand is either raised or it isn't. > The sum of all hands raised is comparable across tests. > The sum of the amplitude of all hums is not. > > > Andy > > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 1:50 AM, Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >> I found the process in the 6tsch BoF (Tue 1520) for asking about taking on the work discussed in the BoF to be thought-provoking. >> >> Toward the end of the BoF, the chairs asked the question "1. Is this a topic that the IETF should address?" First, the chairs asked for a hum. From my vantage point (middle of the room), the hum was pretty close to equal, for/against. I reviewed the audio (http://www.ietf.org/audio/ietf87/ietf87-bellevue-20130730-1520-pm2.mp3, starting about 1:22), and heard a slightly louder hum "for". The BoF chairs decided they needed more information than they could extract from the hum, so they asked for a show of hands. From the audio record, there were "a lot" for (which matches my recollection) and "a handful" against (my memory is that no hands showed against). There was a request to ask for a show of hands for "how many don't know". The question was asked, and the record shows "a dozen". >> >> So, there was apparently a complete change in the answer to the question based on humming versus voting. There may also have been some effect from asking, after the fact, for a show of hands for "don't know". >> >> I'm really curious about the results, which indicate that, at least in this case, the response to the question is heavily dependent on the on the mode used to obtain the answers to the question (which we all know is possible). In particular, the effect of humming versus show of hands was pretty obvious. draft-resnick-on-consensus gives several reasons why humming is preferred over a show of hands. From this example, it seems to me to be worth considering whether a more honest and accurate result is obtained through humming rather than a show of hands. >> >> The other question raised in my mind is why the initial result from the hum, which did not have a consensus either way, was not sufficient. "Roughly the same response" for/against the question would seem to me to be as valid a result as explicit consensus one way or the other, and the act of taking a show of hands to survey the appeared to treat the hum as irrelevant, rather than highly significant. >> >> - Ralph >>