my take is that we have advanced to that stage of organizational life where we have newcomers who, when faced with a new culture with subtle process, are led by personal and/or cultural background to assert that the process should be changed to a model which they already understand, and for it to be documented in triplicate. rightly or wrongly, for historical and left coast cultural reasons, the ietf culture is more to watch, listen, learn, and *contribute technically*. thanks, melinda, for having the patience to try and educate. randy