Getting ahead is very difficult and the best way to do so is to move jobs. I have three kids and two of them are girls. If they want to enter the technical field, I will definitely sit down and have an honest ho holds barred talk with them to prepare them for the disappointments they may face. However if it was my decision, I would discourage them even tough I am in the technical field, enjoy my job and wouldn't want to change careers.
The workplace is supposed to have evolved, to include women, but the workplace really isn't inclusive.
What I have outllined is my perception of things and could very well be true for other professions, which I find to be very similar to that of other women techies. The reason for the perception above are varied and addressing each of them is essential for women to have an interest in engineering. There really won't be a need to push unless being geeky can be pereived as being attractive. What makes geek attractive? That should be the question we need to answer. How do we make geek attractive?
On 2 May 2012 22:06, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Note that mentor net that I mentioned in another email is also focused on increasing minorities in engineering: http://www.mentornet.net/They are always looking for new mentors:If your child doesn't seem to have the aptitude for engineering, then certainly you shouldn't push them in that direction. But, I do have to wonder if you wouldn't have treated a son differently. As you likely figured out, you really do need to allow your child to find their own interests and make their own career decisions,while making sure they have exposure to a broad range of areas. Unfortunately, a lot of public schools don't give kids that exposure these days - they often cut the arts/music and there is almost always an extremely high demand for science and math teachers.As far as my kids, my oldest son is a Freshman studying mechanical engineering (entirely his decision, but he did get awards for the top math and science student, so it does seem a sensible choice). My younger son is the artsy one although he does quite well in math and science. I can't see either or them ever getting involved in IETF - they've gone with me to meetings (and have more t-shirts than many regular attendees) and they were turned off by the overall geekiness (so it's not just women ;) and told me that I actually seem normal relative to everyone else ;)Mary.On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 12:20 PM, Hector Santos <hsantos@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Fred Baker wrote:
On Apr 30, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Ofer Inbar wrote:
This PBS interview with Harvey Mudd president Maria Klawe, on the
subject of why fewer women go into tech & engineering fields, is
worth watching:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2012/04/college_president_discusses_wo.html
This is a discussion that comes up periodically.
If you want my opinion (nobody asked, but I will presume that someone is wondering), the corollary is "why aren't more students interested in math/science?". I'll observe that there are relatively few teachers that I can say "inspired" me to think their their directions; far-too-many years later, I could probably name them. Two were English teachers, one was a Math teacher, tenth grade geometry, one taught 7th grade Geography, and one taught senior Calculus. And, oh, I liked some of my college profs, but in this context my views were probably formed before I got there.
What if teachers were measured on a survey at the end of a semester or a year that asked "does teacher <> make <> interesting to you?".
+1.We have to consider that the engineering life is not always ideal for anyone. Its sounds nice, it does give one more respect among their family peers, helps secure jobs (when available), better pay, etc, but its takes a very high commitment and it is very competitive to keep up even if one wishes to stay in one position and not interested to be move ahead. That presents employer decisions with competitive compensation managers need to make. Younger, lower salary recruitement can do the same job, etc, so generally by 30, aging engineers need to make life career movements and changes.
What about other minorities? Is the recruitment levels the same? Public funded, social programs to fill certain needs? Both at the school and business levels?
A Puerto Rican from the Sough Bronx, I wanted to go to the vocational school up the block - Alfred E. Smith. AP/College bounds programs were presented to me. I didn't know enough to see it or even dream about it.
A HS counselor helped with showing the availability of AA/Minority college grant programs which included girls among the selected group she called to her office. Otherwise, while a good grades student, I wasn't thinking about college. I selected Drexel only because a recruiter came to the HS showing a photo with white, black, spanish and women all wearing cool Drexel Engineering helmets! I selected Chemical Engineering because I saw they made the most salary as a co-op student among all degrees! I had no idea how brutal the Chemical Engineering curriculum would be.
But I had even failed a HS class called "Computers" that introduced this thing called FORTRAN using some punch card thingy. So I was presented with even more Pre-college Grant programs to learn about applied engineering with computers, and it still took an act of GOD with a lightning strike knocking out a PDP-11, forcing us to do the engineering problem translation to BASIC on paper by hand, and only then did I finally get the AH-AH of GIGO!
And even with all that, it still took AA programs it finally get a job because it was mist of a recession that did not help many get a job and this dude called Ted Turner speaking in our graduation getting loud boos recommending that we go into the MILITARY!
IMO, background is very important. Unless there are active social programs and recruitment efforts A.K.A "Marketing," I don't think there will a natural tendency of the so called "minority segment" of (any) society that are not often encouraged or have the family background already, to explore or even think about the science related industry as a career.
Take myself. I was deep into computers and the blossoming world of Telecomputing, micro-at-home era. The wife (Technical Sales Engineer) and I specifically did not want our two new girls to get into the same High Tech business as Daddy and Mommy were in. No Way! Doctors, Lawyers perhaps! No way ENGINEER! It was too tough and I also saw how tough it was for my women peers at Mobil and Westinghouse with an extreme competition going on, and quite frankly faced tough family decisions at some point. In fact, during some pending layoffs at big W, I was told I was going to stay and found out a pregnant software programmer in the group was going to get laid off. With my existing "Fire in my Belly" to quit and start my business already, I took the opportunity and asked the boss to keep her and to lay me off instead so I can get the benefits, Cobra, etc. If I had quit, I lose all that.
I had already saw that the salaries were different too. The idea of working for a corporation lost its appear when I saw a lost of loyalty with people of 20, 25-30 years who had dedicated their engineering lives were now forced to get early retirement, laid off or fired. With no more Federal funding for Advanced Energy programs and the even Defense in AI, Robots and Star Wars, etc, I did not want my two girls to go into these life commitment hard sciences. I didn't push the computers at home on them at all. I didn't teach them about the idea of "programming" etc. Perhaps only to play games, and perhaps to use the early on-disc encyclopedias. They were using Apple stuff at school anyway and that was good enough for us.
Today, both living in NYC, one works for Sony Music productions department and the oldest is a successful independent artist making more money that I can ever imagine possible. She was even a contestant on Bravo's first season "Next Great Artist." The only thing that first worried me was whether she would need to cut off an ear before getting recognized in the art world! :)
--
For women, well, life is life, it is what it is, they have it harder to make family oriented decisions and they are in a position to be, well, let my artist daughter, Jaclyn Santos, show you what woman are facing with her "Super Mom, Super Executive, Super Ho!"
painting:
http://www.jaclynsantos.com/images/large/g.jpg
Finally, for the IETF - well, gotta know first what it wants. What does recruiting more woman (or other minorities for that matter) mean to it? I personally think its just a reflection of whats going on in the market. Its not like the IETF is on the radar for anyone to pursue unless they are presented with it somewhere, somehow, at work most likely with a position where IETF work is part of the job production. I say that is a very very narrow niche job or goal.
PS: These are my views and says nothing about life other than my own.
Sincerely
Hector Santos
http://www.santronics.com
jabber: hector@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
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