At the risk of over-generalization, one of the best selling books in China while I was there (before 1990) was "The Ugly Chinese" (丑陋的中国人, by 柏扬, for those read Chinese). The author is from Taiwan. The book is now in the 16th printing, latest in 2008 shortly before his death (according to http://baike.baidu.com/view/31751.htm). It's published by the People's Literature Press (人民文学出版社), as close to a state/party run press as you can get. I had that book and another by him back then. Note that the theme of the book is that there are -many- ugly artifacts in the Chinese culture (I won't list them here) and he made a point of pointing all of them out, unapologetically. I am going to venture to guess that the China 20-years ago is a lot less open than she is now. So I would say that provocative thought is not something Chinese haven't be exposed to. Notwithstanding the letter (or the intent) of the quoted contract language, many people here have pointed out that all sides (IETF, Chinese government, the Hotel, and participants in China/Asia) want to have a successful IETF meeting in China - if we are having a meeting in China. IMO It's going to take a lot of agitation to get the locals riled up to upset/break up the meeting. Technical discussions on crypto, privacy, 'route around censorship', etc., should not be problematic at all, don't think that they are not discussed in China today. Some people will point to the uncertainty surrounding that as reason not to do it, that's fine. On the other hand, if some of us are determined to lecture the locals on freedom of speech, human rights, religion, Tibet, or Taiwan issues, please take some time, go and see for yourself before settling on a rigidly set opinion or another. We sometimes lose historical perspective to see how far China has moved towards democracy in how short a time. Think US history, when were Blacks given (back) their "inalienable" right to vote - 1966(?)? My personal opinions only, as they were. Thanks, Jerry -- Jerry Huang, AT&T Labs, +1 630 810 7679 (+1 630 719 4389, soon) -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Dave CROCKER Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:33 PM To: Peter Saint-Andre Cc: ietf@xxxxxxxx Subject: Re: One level up on the IAOC decision in re: China. Peter Saint-Andre wrote: > You have just shown disrespect to both the German and Italian cultures. > I suppose we won't be able to hold any meetings in those countries now, > either... ;-) Depends on whether they impose a contractual clause against such statements. Some cultures treat such disrespect as a sign that you care. Others view it at boorish, but tolerate it. Mileage really /does/ vary. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf