Hi, A personal opinion: I believe that the logistic concerns voiced here (cost, visa, air pollution, freedom of network access for IETF business needs) should not be seen as a deterrent and are not likely to be a practical problem. There are associated problems and risks, and they are IMHO considerably larger than the ones of this infamous RFID experiment, but they appear to me to be manageable. Still, I am against the idea of an IETF meeting hosted in the PRC at the present time, and I'm not in favor of signing the agreement as proposed. Given a choice by my clients or employer, I'm also not going to travel to the PRC. My main motivation lies in the moral dimension, as excellently formulated by Ross in his second class of concern (reproduced below for convenience). The need for self-censorship beyond of what common sense suggests to a western-educated person is a second, albeit smaller and perhaps a bit selfish, concern. This is not only a PRC issue: I would also argue against IETF meetings in perhaps two thirds of the UN member states, for similar reasons. In contrast to SDOs under control of political entities (ITU, ESTI, ...), we do have a choice of venue. Let's exercise it. Regards, Stephan P.s.: A personal anecdote; skip it if you are in a rush: Between 1984 and 1989 I was living in West Berlin, which was at the time surrounded by the so-called German Democratic Republic (GDR). The GDR's political system shared some aspects of the system in the PRC, including certain limitations in personal freedom, that I was not willing to endorse in any way. When driving from West Berlin to the rest of free Germany, one necessarily had to transit through the GDR. Catering to those transit drivers, the GDR offered cheap food, gas, cigarettes and booze at "Intershop" shops along these transit routes, for western currency of course. Stopping and shopping there was popular, and one could save quite a bit of money. I tried to *never* take advantage of these commercial offerings. It was my minor, risk-free way to deny the then GDR regime a few pennies of western currency. (Occasionally I did get gas, because I forgot to fill up in the West, but I do not recall to ever have filled up...). In summary, at the time I did have a choice, and I exercised it. It did cost me a bit, and it was unlikely to have any measurable effect on the political system in the GDR. Still, it felt right to me. Needless to say, with the fall of the iron curtain, all this became a non-issue. On 9/18/09 12:11 PM, "Ross Callon" <rcallon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Speaking solely as an individual, providing only my personal opinion: > > I think that this is not acceptable and we should not sign it. > > I understand that no location is perfect. However, I think that this goes well > beyond what we normally put up with and well beyond what we should put up > with. > > There are two classes of issues which concern me: > > The first is the risk to the IETF. I understand that the likelihood of > anything happening as a result of this is very low. However, the IETF is a > very unruly and opinionated group, and is probably more unruly than other > groups that have recently met in China (or anywhere else). We have little idea > what IETF attendees will do either in spite of or even because of this > restriction. It would not be surprising to have some sort of major dust-up at > the IESG plenary over this issue, and we don't know how the host country > officials would react to this. Also, while the risk of the meeting being > stopped in the middle seems very low, if it did happen this would be a very > bad result for all concerned. If one IETF attendee were to be booted out of > the hosting country based on something that they said or put on their slides > or in a jabber room even that would be very bad. > > Also, from a moral point of view I don't think that we should accept this. > Freedom of speech is a very basic freedom that is guaranteed in a wide range > of countries (although of course not all). The people who live there don't > have the ability to say "no" without serious consequences. We DO have the > ability to say no, and I think that we should. > > Again, this is just my personal opinion, and not the opinion of any group nor > organization that I might happen to be associated with. > > thanks, Ross > > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:iesg-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: 18 September 2009 11:42 > To: IETF Announcement list; IETF-Discussion list; Working Group Chairs > Cc: IAOC Jabberr; IAB IAB; IESG; irtf-chair@xxxxxxxx > Subject: Request for community guidance on issue concerning a future meeting > of the IETF > > Greetings; > > We have received numerous suggestions and requests for an IETF meeting > in China and the IAOC has been working on a potential China meeting for > several years. We are now close to making a decision on a potential > upcoming meeting in China. However, the following issue has arisen > and we would appreciate your feedback. > > The Chinese government has imposed a rule on all conferences held > since 2008 regarding political speech. A fundamental law in China > requires that one not criticize the government. Practically, this > has reference to public political statements or protest marches, which > are not the IETF's custom. The government, which is a party to the > issue, > requires that people who attend conferences in China (the IETF being > but one example) not engage in political speech during their tour > in China. We consider this to be acceptable, on the basis that the > IETF intends to abide by the laws of whatever nations it visits and > we don't believe that this impacts our ability to do technical work. > > The rule is implemented in the Hotel agreement and reads (note that > the "Client" would be the Host, and the "Group" would be the IETF) : > > "Should the contents of the Group's activities, visual or audio > presentations at the conference,or printed materials used at the > conference (which are within the control of the Client) contain > any defamation against the Government of the People's Republic > of China, or show any disrespect to the Chinese culture, or > violates any laws of the People's Republic of China or feature > any topics regarding human rights or religion without prior > approval from the Government of the People's Republic of China, > the Hotel reserves the right to terminate the event on the spot > and/or ask the person(s) who initiates or participates in any or > all of the above action to leave the hotel premises immediately. > > The Client will support and assist the Hotel with the necessary > actions to handle such situations. Should there be any financial > loss incurred to the Hotel or damage caused to the Hotel's > reputation as a result of any or all of the above acts, the Hotel > will claim compensation from the Client." > > What does this condition mean ? The hotel staff would have, in theory, > the legal right to shut down the meeting and ask the offending > participants to leave the property immediately. While we do not > foresee a situation where such action would take place, we feel that > it is proper to disclose these conditions to the community. > > The members of the IAOC, speaking as individuals, do not like this > condition as a matter of principle. The IAOC does believe that this > condition would not prevent the IETF from conducting its business. > > We note that the Vancouver/Quebec survey conducted earlier this year > asked for people to suggest venues in Asia; an overwhelming majority > (94%) of those who mentioned China were in favor of having a meeting > there. > > We are therefore asking for input from the community by two means - by > commenting on the IETF discussion list, and also by completing a very > short survey on people's intentions to travel to China, or not, > subject to these conditions. This survey can be found here : > > https://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=h4DUkRUOdG_2bVLqioPcYYHw_3d_3d > > All responses received by October 1, 2009 at 9:00 AM EDT (1300 UTC) > will be considered by the IAOC in making its decision. We appreciate > the assistance of the community in providing us with data that will > help us to make an informed decision. > > Regards > Marshall Eubanks > (acting for the IAOC) > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf