If by engage you mean continue to discuss the terms of having a meeting in China, then I agree. If the government there really wants to host an IETF meeting, they should be able to help changes these terms to focus on individuals and not the entire event or organization. But to suggest that without holding a meeting in China the IETF does not engage its Chinese members, that is simply false. Personally, I doubt I will be attending a meeting in China. Not because of any political reasons, but simply because the cost of such a meeting compared to the value it brings my employer (that is attending a meeting, not general IETF participation). My concerns are having access to the meeting via IRC and voice streams and not having to worry about where the meeting it taking place. I think bad behavior is more likely from people participating from outside China than at the event. And if all it takes to shut down such channels is someone saying something about Tibet on the IRC channel, then that's simply not acceptable. EHL > -----Original Message----- > From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of > Marshall Eubanks > Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 3:17 PM > To: Steve Crocker > Cc: IAOC IAOC; IETF Discussion > Subject: Re: [IAOC] Request for community guidance on issue concerning > a future meeting of the IETF > > Speaking just for myself, I agree with Steve. I think it that is > better to engage than to retreat. Nothing is certain, but I also think > that it is highly likely that we would have a good meeting. > > Regards > Marshall > > > On Sep 19, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: > > > The choice is between engaging and not engaging. Engaging is > > better. Not engaging isn't constructive. The Internet and the IETF > > are all about engaging, expanding, communicating and being open. > > Much of this dialog has been worried about possible extreme > > situations. Let's focus on the center. More than a billion people > > live in China and their use of the Internet is expanding rapidly. > > They are building much of the technology and contributing > > technically. It's to everyone's advantage to have comfortable, > > constructive interaction. Our first slogan was "Networks Bring > > People Together." > > > > If you prefer to focus on the negatives, here's my analysis: > > > > If we don't go to China, we have charted a downhill course and the > > rest of the world will come together without us. The IETF will lose > > relevance. > > > > If we do go to China and something bad happens, the consequences > > will be much worse for China than for the IETF. The work of the > > IETF will suffer a bit, but we'll recover quickly enough. However, > > China's quest for engagement with the rest of the world will be hurt > > more seriously. > > > > Bottom line: We should go to China with a positive attitude. We're > > robust enough to deal with any consequences. If we don't go to > > China, however, we have weakened ourselves. > > > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > IAOC mailing list > > IAOC@xxxxxxxx > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/iaoc > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@xxxxxxxx > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf