On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 11:23:10AM -0800, Dave CROCKER wrote: > Evidently you believe that the anecdote you posted proves something, but > I am not sure what. > > Some others have suggested that it proves something which, I strongly > suspect, is not what you had in mind. > > Perhaps you can clarify the purpose of your note. How should it be > incorporated into the IETF's deliberations? The point I was trying to make is that there seems to be an inherent assumption by some people, perhaps because the people who make these assumptions run large mail servers, that the problem with someone who is wrongly blocked rests solely with the sender, and not with the utimate recipient, or with the mailer operator. It's essentially an attitude of you have no _right_ to send us e-mail, and if we make an (inevitable) mistake, and blacklist list you incorrectly, it is up to **you** (the sender) to go to us on bended knee and prove tht you are not an evil spammer, or an incompentent Windows desktop owner who has let their machine be taken over by a botnet. I'm sure they feel magnaminous when they offer some method of approaching them on bended knee, hoping that that they will give you permissionto send e-mail --- whether it is via a phone number or whether it is via placing an international phone call and paying $$$ to some Austrialian PTT to beg and plead to be removed from some IP blacklist --- and I am still not convinced it is the best indetifier when deciding whether or not blocking *all* mail from a particular IP address. You may be trying to place the burden on me, but consider that we are merely getting assertions from the other side of the aisle as well. My main point, though, is that in some cases, the ultimate recipient may have a much greater interest in receiving the e-mail than the sender, and so the model of requiring the sender to assume the burden of proof and go on bended knee to the mailserver administrator to let their e-mails through may not be a particularly good model to use as the basis for making recommendations for best practice. Regards, - Ted _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf