RE: Diagrams (Was RFCs should be distributed in XML)

[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

 



Marshall,

	That may be true, but it has long been the case that a
state-machine may completely and accurately be defined as a
(relatively) simple symbolic expression - requiring no figure
at all.  Assuming that such an expression is included in the
normative text, then reference to an illustrative figure would 
be an appropriate non-normative reference.

--
Eric

--> -----Original Message-----
--> From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] 
--> On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks
--> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:00 AM
--> To: Stewart Bryant
--> Cc: Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB); ietf@xxxxxxxx
--> Subject: Re: Diagrams (Was RFCs should be distributed in XML)
--> 
--> Hello;
--> 
--> I suspect that there is a lot more reliance of non-ASCII 
--> art out there than is officially admitted.
--> 
--> I do not know how, for example, you can  understand the 
--> PIMv2 state machine without reference to the (non-ASCII) 
--> diagrams provided in the
--> (non-ASCII) version of the draft.
--> 
--> Regards
--> Marshall Eubanks
--> 
--> On Nov 16, 2005, at 7:29 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote:
--> 
--> > It's interesting that when authors turn up at IETF to 
--> explain their 
--> > work/resolve issues etc they use colored diagrams to do 
--> so - not ASCII 
--> > art.
--> >
--> > Some of this is fashionable, but in many cases it is to clearly 
--> > articulate a point in the very little time made available.
--> > I don't see why such powerful techniques shouldn't be 
--> applied to the 
--> > specifications themselves to allow the reader to most 
--> grasp what is 
--> > being said with the minimum effort.
--> >
--> > I am afraid that I don't subscribe to the hair shirt approach to 
--> > drawings. I think that they should be exactly fit for 
--> purpose neither 
--> > too complex, nor too simple, and that the need to work round the 
--> > limits of 72 ASCII characters should not be a constraint 
--> that limits 
--> > the clarity of expression.
--> >
--> > For example look at slides 5 and 6 in
--> > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/05nov/slides/pwe3-2.ppt
--> >
--> > and compare to figure1 in
--> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-balus-bocci-martini-dyn-
--> > ms-pwe3-00.txt
--> >
--> > The latter shows the components of the system, but it is 
--> impossible to 
--> > put the detail shown in the slides into the diagrams in the 
--> > specification itself with our current tools.
--> >
--> > Look at the figures in
--> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bocci-bryant-pwe3-ms-pw-
--> > arch-01.txt
--> > particularly figure 8. We are at the limit of what we can 
--> describe in 
--> > these diagrams.
--> >
--> > I can also find examples in the IP Fast Re-route work where we 
--> > struggle to show network snippets in ASCII with the associated 
--> > addressing and subsequent tunneling, and yet the 
--> operation is simple 
--> > to show in ppt, pdf, etc etc, particularly with colour.
--> >
--> > Another example - many of the ideas that we talk about in 
--> the IETF 
--> > start life as a few coloured lines on a large whiteboard 
--> - because 
--> > that is the simplest way to visualise these ideas and to 
--> express them 
--> > for the first time to our peers. That style of expression 
--> therefore 
--> > seems to the specifications themselves and for exactly 
--> the same reason 
--> > - clarity.
--> >
--> > Perhaps it is because the work that I do is mainly on 
--> overlay network 
--> > techniques where it is necessary to describe how the 
--> virtual network 
--> > maps onto the physical network that I find difficulty 
--> producing clear 
--> > ASCII art, but I would be surprised if I were alone in that view.
--> >
--> > If we think that ASCII art is all that is needed, perhaps - as an 
--> > experiment - we should forbid the use of anything other 
--> than ASCII art 
--> > in presentations at the next IETF?
--> >
--> > - Stewart
--> >
--> >
--> >
--> > _______________________________________________
--> > Ietf mailing list
--> > Ietf@xxxxxxxx
--> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
--> 
--> 
--> _______________________________________________
--> Ietf mailing list
--> Ietf@xxxxxxxx
--> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
--> 

_______________________________________________

Ietf@xxxxxxxx
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf

[Index of Archives]     [IETF Annoucements]     [IETF]     [IP Storage]     [Yosemite News]     [Linux SCTP]     [Linux Newbies]     [Fedora Users]