Marshall, That may be true, but it has long been the case that a state-machine may completely and accurately be defined as a (relatively) simple symbolic expression - requiring no figure at all. Assuming that such an expression is included in the normative text, then reference to an illustrative figure would be an appropriate non-normative reference. -- Eric --> -----Original Message----- --> From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] --> On Behalf Of Marshall Eubanks --> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 11:00 AM --> To: Stewart Bryant --> Cc: Lars-Erik Jonsson (LU/EAB); ietf@xxxxxxxx --> Subject: Re: Diagrams (Was RFCs should be distributed in XML) --> --> Hello; --> --> I suspect that there is a lot more reliance of non-ASCII --> art out there than is officially admitted. --> --> I do not know how, for example, you can understand the --> PIMv2 state machine without reference to the (non-ASCII) --> diagrams provided in the --> (non-ASCII) version of the draft. --> --> Regards --> Marshall Eubanks --> --> On Nov 16, 2005, at 7:29 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote: --> --> > It's interesting that when authors turn up at IETF to --> explain their --> > work/resolve issues etc they use colored diagrams to do --> so - not ASCII --> > art. --> > --> > Some of this is fashionable, but in many cases it is to clearly --> > articulate a point in the very little time made available. --> > I don't see why such powerful techniques shouldn't be --> applied to the --> > specifications themselves to allow the reader to most --> grasp what is --> > being said with the minimum effort. --> > --> > I am afraid that I don't subscribe to the hair shirt approach to --> > drawings. I think that they should be exactly fit for --> purpose neither --> > too complex, nor too simple, and that the need to work round the --> > limits of 72 ASCII characters should not be a constraint --> that limits --> > the clarity of expression. --> > --> > For example look at slides 5 and 6 in --> > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/05nov/slides/pwe3-2.ppt --> > --> > and compare to figure1 in --> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-balus-bocci-martini-dyn- --> > ms-pwe3-00.txt --> > --> > The latter shows the components of the system, but it is --> impossible to --> > put the detail shown in the slides into the diagrams in the --> > specification itself with our current tools. --> > --> > Look at the figures in --> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bocci-bryant-pwe3-ms-pw- --> > arch-01.txt --> > particularly figure 8. We are at the limit of what we can --> describe in --> > these diagrams. --> > --> > I can also find examples in the IP Fast Re-route work where we --> > struggle to show network snippets in ASCII with the associated --> > addressing and subsequent tunneling, and yet the --> operation is simple --> > to show in ppt, pdf, etc etc, particularly with colour. --> > --> > Another example - many of the ideas that we talk about in --> the IETF --> > start life as a few coloured lines on a large whiteboard --> - because --> > that is the simplest way to visualise these ideas and to --> express them --> > for the first time to our peers. That style of expression --> therefore --> > seems to the specifications themselves and for exactly --> the same reason --> > - clarity. --> > --> > Perhaps it is because the work that I do is mainly on --> overlay network --> > techniques where it is necessary to describe how the --> virtual network --> > maps onto the physical network that I find difficulty --> producing clear --> > ASCII art, but I would be surprised if I were alone in that view. --> > --> > If we think that ASCII art is all that is needed, perhaps - as an --> > experiment - we should forbid the use of anything other --> than ASCII art --> > in presentations at the next IETF? --> > --> > - Stewart --> > --> > --> > --> > _______________________________________________ --> > Ietf mailing list --> > Ietf@xxxxxxxx --> > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> --> --> _______________________________________________ --> Ietf mailing list --> Ietf@xxxxxxxx --> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf --> _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf