RE: OFF TOPIC - Bail money for IETF 64?

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On 05:52 21/09/2005, Hallam-Baker, Phillip said:
The origins are military, the Romans were the first engineers. The root
is ingeniosus, meaning "skilled".

Yeap. Or "in genere" which means to puts his "gen-" (same as ADN gene, conception, genius, live, "gens"=extended familly, gang ) into something. This is complementary to the "architect" who says what is behind (archi) what is built. The first architect and ingineer is God. The term degraded to the military engineer - through Romans etc. down to French Polytechnic School by Napoleon, and ARPA. Civil Architects and Engineers were at work very early when you see the Iraqi and the Roman water systems or Pyramids. (Cartographers should not be forgot as they were the most important ones [deciding of the taxes on land] and being the applied mathematicians).

The military engineers were protected and made responsibles by their Military Rank received through a "Brevet" and the civil engineers were protected and made responsible by their "Lettres Patentes" (the King or an authority acknowledging their competence or their rights over an invention). This developped under Louis XV and Louis XVI due to a guy named Beaumarchais who generalised the concept to the authors and to copyrights, finding this way to make benefits which were used to finance French unformal support to the Insurgents (La Fayette) and once stabilised to a broad part of American War budget (so the USA are sons of the French poets). Today a right on an invention is a "Brevet" in French and a "Patent" in English. We see that some Americans want to patent everything (including softwares) making everyone an engineer and an IPR holder, and Europe just refused to follow them to such extent considering that Open Source was a better economic and societal approach.

This is also the same problem IESG currently faces with RFC 3066 bis, hence my opposition. Is a language a commodity defacto "patented" by a IANA registry managed by Unicode, or is a language a common cultural right of those using it, documented by an ISO 11179 conformant
registry system?

Something which may be fun to some: when the Abbé (priest) Chappe started the first telecommunication system (panthograph) he met a problem when somebody built a castel in between two pantographs. He explained that to Louis XVI (the fellow who sponsored the first human flight and the first parachute jump in his Versailles Castle). The King gave him a "Lettre Patente" granting him the right to forbide such buildings between two pieces of land used or to be used for Panthograph Towers. This created the Telecom monopoly and forced Chappe to buy lands and to set-up communication rates to pay for them. These lands became military lands under Napoleon (back to military engineering) to protect communications (up to Moscow). When Marconi invented Radio they took 20 years to start thinking of TV. TV need local towers: they used Chappe's properties. Today TV in France is supported by a public common service to all the TV Chains, using them. I suppose Wi-Fi is around. From ADN genes to ADSL memes ...

jfc






The military engineers were always responsible for more than building of
siege engines, they would also build the earth works for attack and
defense.

The term 'civil engineer' was coined to differentiate building of public
works from the military form. I have a feeling it might have been
Brunnel who coined the term but it might be earlier.

During the 19th century engineers were the rock stars of the day.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx [mailto:ietf-bounces@xxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of George Swallow
> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:23 AM
> To: Jeffrey Hutzelman
> Cc: JFC (Jefsey) Morfin; swallow@xxxxxxxxx; ietf@xxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - Bail money for IETF 64?
>
>
> > Unfortunately, the English term can carry either of these meanings,
> > depending largely on context.  It is applied to people who drive
> > trains (because they operate an "engine", to people who provide
> > technical support, and also to people who design complex
> electrical or
> > mechanical systems or structures.  You have to know from
> context which
> > is which.
>
> It's my (non-authoritative) understanding that the term
> engineer originally meant someone who built engines (think
> seize engines, etc).
>
> When locomotive were first invented they were not very
> reliable so the guy who drove them was a kind of 'field
> support engineer' and the name engineer stuck.
>
> ...George
>
> ==============================================================
> ==========
> George Swallow             Cisco Systems
> (978) 936-1398
>                            1414 Massachusetts Avenue
>                            Boxborough, MA 01719
>
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