As we see from the comments so far, the problem with giving a name to this new area reveals uncertainty as to the intent. Signaling-centric comments ---------------------------------------- Harald used the phrase "SIP-type services" (note the emphasis on the signaling aspects) implying that anything that can be setup using SIP and its extensions (or somehow connected with such services) is included. James word-smiths Harald's phrase into "what is in and around SIP" but modulates it with a "not absolutely!", in order to nudge it in the direction of "Rich Media Apps". >From these comments the interactivity and delay sensitivity is not criticial to the definition. However, as SIP is often used to set up "real-time" services, they are somehow connected. Traffic-centric comments ----------------------------------- Melinda is worried that "real-time" might imply timing rigor (presumably Allan deviations, MTIE/TDEV masks and other mathematical monsters) and so presumably is interested in handling real-time (i.e. continuous time) services, but wants to leave the mathematical aspects out. Marshall wishes us to recognizes the difference between sensitivity to delay and to jitter, and emphasizes the former. Grenville sees the challenge in standardizing protocols for delay-sensitive applications, adding interactive gaming to the list. These comments emphasize the difficulty in working over IP when delay (and perhaps delay variation) is critical, which typically means interactive applications. I like to probe the difference between these approaches by asking not about WGs, but about specific apps. Should streaming one-way video, which is real-time but not interactive nor delay sensitive (although it may be jitter sensitive) be under the aegis of this new area ? How about instant messaging and presence indications (mentioned in Brian's original message) which are interactive, but not "real-time" in the DSP sense ? What about TDM over IP (a subject close to my heart) which is real-time and timing is critical, but is set up using LDP and not SIP ? Y(J)S _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf