Brian, > > However, I'm not entirely convinced that the unrestricted veto really > > exists. Before I can think about solutions to this problem, I need to > > reexamine the process and convince myself that it really is a problem. > > A DISCUSS isn't a veto. I've seen numerous cases even in my short experience > as an AD of DISCUSSes leading to, er, discussion and a new draft (or edits) > that solves enough of the issues that the AD removes their DISCUSS. I don't > think I've seen any new DISCUSSes that I would categorize as frivolous or > individualistic. > > What we do have is a long tail on the distribution of the dwell time of > DISCUSSes. I haven't had a chance to analyze the root causes of the very > old DISCUSSes. Just a word from the peanut-gallery here. As a recipient of DISCUSSes, I sometimes had trouble understanding what the DISCUSS was about. Sometimes a DISCUSS is a request for a discussion on a point, because something was not clear. Sometimes it is a warning, like "Are you really sure you mean this? You should reconsider it or at least come up with some proof that it is a good idea." And sometimes, it is an outright veto, meaning "I will not let this document pass until this is fixed, even if the WG had fully examined this issue and purposefully chosen the solution." Often, it is hard to understand what is meant by a DISCUSS, and due to IESG overload, it is not always possible to engage in a meaningful discussion of a DISCUSS. I will note that recently things seem to be headed (slowly) in a more possitive direction, but ... So, as a recipient of a DISCUSS, I've learned the hard way that the easiest way to resolve a DISCUSS is to ask the IESG member for the exact text they want added and be done with it. I don't think this is the correct way to do things, but after working on a document for x number of years and trying to push it through the last mile, often document editors just want to get it done. John _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf