Re: TELNET to HISTORIC Re: FTP

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--On Thursday, July 11, 2024 08:40 -0400 Keith Moore
<moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> On 7/10/24 23:10, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
>> Move both to HISTORIC. Saying something is obsolete lets the new
>> stuff  arrive to replace it.
> 
> I think it's the other way around.   Something becomes obsolete
> after something better arrives to replace it.

I have to agree with Keith and let me go a step further.  With
Internet applications, we are not in a situation in which the
existence of one application blocks the introduction of another.
The very fact that plausible replacements -- with similar or a
superset of the functionality of the original -- have not emerged,
gotten traction, and been standardized, actually suggests that the
old application is adequate.  It could, of course, also suggest
either of two other things: 

 * that no one cares.  In that case moving something to
	Historic will not do a thing to promote the introduction of
	replacements.
 * that the IETF is sufficiently broken that new work that is
	clearly needed, with people (not just one or two enthusiasts)
	ready to do the work, is being discouraged or blocked
	somehow.  In that case, whether FTP and/or Telnet are make
	Historic or not is the least of our problems.

To respond quickly to a couple of other comments:

 * I hope and assume Brian was joking, but... Unless we intend
	to create a new division of the Protocol Police, with Global,
	maybe interplanetary, enforcement authority and mechanisms to
	immediately disconnect or imprison any user who dares to try
	to use the protocol and to fine any developer who dares to
	including a Telnet client or interface in its offerings,
	making Telnet historic would not get port 23 back.  Instead,
	it would create serious interoperability problems as soon as
	something else tried to use that port for another purpose.
 * Unless it were updated/extended to be strictly
	forward-compatible (including supporting any option
	negotiation than anyone in the world was using), promoting
	SSH to Internet Standard has little or nothing to do with
	this (even though it is probably overdue, especially if it
	brought us a consolidate document).  People who are happy
	with Telnet and can find it will keep using Telnet.  People
	who understand the advantages of SSH or who find accessing it
	more convenient will use SSH, just like they do today.  The
	IETF doesn't have much influence there either, certainly not
	with an established and well-documented protocol.

Constructive suggestion for anyone who wants to see FTP and/or Telnet
go away: draft an Applicability Statement that carefully explains the
issues and risks with those protocols, possibly explores where they
are and are not supported, and discusses and recommends some
alternatives.  Such a document might get some traction and be helpful
where changing of labels (such as reclassifying Internet Standards to
Historic) would not.  Looking at the situation a different way, the
same explanation and document content would (or should be) a
prerequisite changing the status of Internet Standards that are still
in use, even for marginal cases, to Historic (or much of anything
else).

   john







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