Thanks, Brian and Tommy, for your thoughts on this.
I think the critical point is "if the re-org is needed, delay is a bad idea". Reading through the discussion past this point, I came to the conclusion that the reorg was at most an optimization; it shifts things around in ways that might or might not improve things. I'm happy enough to see it tried, but I think the IETF can handle a delay in it.
If we don't delay, the NomCom has both a last minute addition of an IETF chair along the attendant community consultations for the timing changes, plus changes to the scope of multiple other areas:
ART gets smaller
TWA comes into being
OPS takes two groups
SEC takes two groups
INT takes one
There's a hope in all of this that combining transport with web applications will make the historic difficulties in finding transport ADs easier, but even with the OPS/NM type split, there's no evidence yet to support that hope. It could well be that it gets harder, if the incoming ADs feel that they have to have at least some competence in each. It also may get harder to find ART folks, since some of their work may now spread between ART and TWA.
Those changes are a big lift for a NomCom and it will also be a big lift for the incoming Chair, since the new incumbent will have to lead a group with substantially new internal dynamics.
Separating these out seems prudent to me, and I don't see enough urgency in proposed changes to warrant yoking them together.
best regards,
Ted Hardie
On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 2:25 PM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think I agree with Brian here. The particular details of the change proposed by the IESG here mean that we’d be keeping existing ADs for both of the roles for the new/reorganized area (Zahed and Francesca). If we do nothing regarding the reorganization, and are adding both a new ART AD and replacing a TSV AD, we will end up with a larger IESG than we previously had, with more new members than otherwise.
Tommy
> On Sep 19, 2023, at 1:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> On 20-Sep-23 06:13, Ted Hardie wrote:
>> Hi Martin,
>> I'm returning to this message, as my thinking on it has changed since Lars made his announcement. I think it would be difficult for the NomCom to manage the interim replacement of the IETF chair and a reorganization of this scope with the time available. It would also be more difficult for any candidates for Chair, since they would be stepping into a position in a group undergoing a significant reorganization.
>
> That could be an opportunity as much as a challenge. On balance, I think I disagree with Ted. If the reorg is needed, delay is a bad idea.
>
> Brian
>
>> I suggest that the IESG hold off on this reorganization for one NomCom cycle. That will simplify a complex situation somewhat and give additional time for the community to consider the matter.
>> with best regards,
>> Ted Hardie
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 8:50 AM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:martin.h.duke@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>> The IESG proposes to reorganize the areas by merging the web-related working groups in ART with most of the transport area to create a new area called either “Web and Application Transport” (WAT) or “Transport and Web Applications” (TWA), effective at IETF 119. The IESG invites community comment on this change.
>> The Transport area (TSV) is the smallest area in terms of working groups. More importantly, it has been extremely difficult to find candidates for the two Transport AD positions for many years. Although the Transport Area could be managed by one AD, the IESG strongly feels that having a partner is very important for vacation coverage, managing working groups, handling conflicts of interest, and so on.
>> Meanwhile, the Applications and Real Time (ART) area has been growing. The IESG has already requested a third AD position for ART to be seated by the NomCom in 2024. One of these three ART ADs would move to the new area, together with one AD from TSV. Concurrently eliminating a position prevents growth in the overall size of the IESG.
>> Similar to the OPS area, this new area would have two centers of gravity (transport layer and web applications), so that one AD would have transport expertise and the other would have HTTP expertise. Thematically, this new area would have cohesion around traditional Transport subjects and ART protocols that are often used as transports (especially HTTP). These groups tend to have significant attendance overlaps.
>> Affected Working Groups
>> The following working groups would move outside both ART and the new area:
>> *
>> ALTO to OPS
>> *
>> DTN to INT
>> *
>> IPPM to OPS
>> *
>> SCIM to SEC
>> *
>> TIGRESS to SEC
>> The new area would consist of the following working groups:
>> *
>> AVTCORE
>> *
>> CDNI
>> *
>> CCWG
>> *
>> CORE
>> *
>> HTTPAPI
>> *
>> HTTPBIS
>> *
>> MASQUE
>> *
>> MOQ
>> *
>> NFSV4
>> *
>> QUIC
>> *
>> RTCWEB
>> *
>> TAPS
>> *
>> TCPM
>> *
>> TSVAREA (to be renamed in accordance with the new area and an updated description/purpose)
>> *
>> TSVWG (this may require a minor recharter, but would retain the same competencies)
>> *
>> WEBTRANS
>> All other ART working groups would remain in place.
>> The Transport Area Review Team (TSVART) would not change its purpose, scope, or operations. The Transport-focused AD would have primary responsibility for managing this team. The HTTP Directorate would also remain as-is and would be overseen by the HTTP-oriented AD of the new area. Details about ARTART are TBD.
>> Transition Plan
>> The IESG would request that NomCom not fill the open TSV AD position currently occupied by Martin Duke. Francesca Palombini and Zahed Sarker would be the initial ADs for the new area.
>> The IESG would also request that one of the two ART openings be filled for only a one-year term, so as to stagger future ART AD terms.
>> The new area’s AD terms would initially also end at the same time. In the 2024-2025 NomCom cycle, the IESG would request that the NomCom fill two slots, one with transport expertise and one with HTTP expertise, either of which could be a one-year term (but not both).
>> Next Steps
>> Please submit any comments on this plan, including the name/acronym to iesg@xxxxxxxx <mailto:iesg@xxxxxxxx>no later than 20 Sep 2023 (anywhere on Earth).
>> Concurrently, the IESG will work on updated job descriptions to be transmitted to the NomCom. It anticipates this update will be relatively minor.
>> On Behalf of the IESG,
>> Martin Duke
>> Transport AD
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