Fred, FB> IMHO, the charter of a working group is a contract-of-sorts to accomplish FB> something. If a working group has no future milestones, I can't imagine why FB> it is meeting - at minimum, it should be (IMHO) in the process of FB> rechartering (which is a milestone in its own right). I would like to see FB> working groups held to their chartered work plans, and rechartered if the FB> work-plan changes. My sense is that there is rough consensus on the sentiments you express, but this does not seem to translate into particular actions. As you note, for example, we are still authorizing some pretty awful charters. In particular, they cannot serve as wg project management reference documents. That is, they do not contain information that really permits assessing focus and scope (what the working group must work on) or progress (whether it is being productive in satisfying its goals.) FB> I will only tell you how I found them. I went to FB> see whether there was an obvious example of a working group that was FB> outside its charter. So the first idea, for translating into action, is to do an audit of the charter regularly. This is not a new idea, of course, but such reviews do not seem to be getting done. If this is going to be a serious tool, I think it needs to be done by more than Area Directors. We need to have review and enforcement of milestones be a priority WITHIN working groups. It is not that participants cannot raise such concerns now, it is that they generally don't. In other words, we need a cultural change that encourage participants -- most especially chairs -- to raise progress questions and get them resolved. FB> I went to www.ietf.org, clicked on "working groups", FB> clicked on the area at the top of the list, and clicked on the first FB> working group under that area. This working group has two milestones that FB> are past and a number that are future, and no notation of whether they have FB> met their milestones or not. I then clicked on the second working group in FB> that area, and found the following: FB> Consider the dates: what is the argument for this WG meeting? Someone needs FB> to sit down and very specifically ask "what in the world is happening? Is FB> this WG moribund and in need of some merciful person to put it out of its FB> misery? If not, what is the real plan for its future?" YES! The simplistic criteria for getting a slot should be: - What will be accomplished at the meeting? - How will that constitute wg progress? - Why should anyone believe the meeting will accomplish its goals? Unfortunately, all 3 questions are essential. d/ -- Dave Crocker <mailto:dcrocker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Brandenburg InternetWorking <http://www.brandenburg.com> Sunnyvale, CA USA <tel:+1.408.246.8253>, <fax:+1.866.358.5301> _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf