Hi. A question as to whether I'm the only one who is bothered by a trend and, if not, if it is time for the community to give the IESG and the RFC Editor some advice. I note that my concern is _only_ about standards-track documents: they are widely referenced and cited by title as well as number, they are IETF work products, and the IESG presumably has, or should have final authority about what they are called. It seems plausible, indeed likely, that other conventions and issues might reasonably apply to non-standards-track documents. The RFC Editor has a policy about "abbreviations" in titles and body text. The title part of that policy, from 2223bis, is " 2.9 Titles Abbreviations (e.g., acronyms) in a title should generally be expanded; the exception is abbreviations that are so common (like TCP, IP, SNMP, FTP, etc.) that every member of the IETF can be expected to recognize them immediately. It is often helpful to follow the expansion with the parenthesized abbreviation, as in [...]" While perhaps not as explicitly stated, this has been the policy for as long as I can remember. And, for whatever my opinion, it is a policy I strongly support for "real" abbreviations. In years past, it has been applied with considerable discretion. It appears to me that we are now going too far in the direction of expansion. In our industry, there are many occasions in which a name is formed from an abbreviation, but the original expansion rapidly loses meaning (or had a very contrived meaning to start with). In those cases, the string is a name, not an "abbreviation", regardless of its origins. The expansion of it as an abbreviation doesn't provide significant information and may, indeed, add to confusion. We have been exploiting that mechanism for years in the names of IETF WGs: they are almost all abbreviations for something, but some of those abbreviations are from strings that are so contrived that many active participants in the relevant WGs would have trouble either expanding the string or recognizing the name of the WG if spelled out without the abbreviation. Quick, what is "lemonade" and, based on the expansion, what does the WG do? I suggest that, for standards-track documents, if there are terms that are almost always used as words, with little or no information value in treating them as abbreviations (even if they were derived that way), we should just treat them as words. An explanation in the body text (not the title or abstract) as to where the term came from might well be appropriate, but forcing a long title is, I believe, not in IETF's best interests in these cases. To take an example --not because it is an especially good one, but because it showed up in my mailbox today-- the RFC Editor recently announced publication of RFC 3839, "MIME Type Registrations for 3rd Generation Partnership Project (3GPP) Multimedia files". Now, as far as I have been able to tell, everyone who has anything to do with 3GPP or its standards knows it as "3GPP". The RFC that defines the original cooperation agreement from which this work presumably derives, RFC 3113, uses "3GPP" as a name. If one writes out "Third Generation Partnership Project" (I believe that "3rd..." is not even correct), the active users of those standards are likely to have to stop to think about what one is talking about. So we are not adding information value by this expansion: we are being fussy (never a good property for an engineering body) and we are making the title much longer, which, in turn requires a short form which is a potential source of confusion. If we treat "3GPP" as a name, which is how it is used, we would have had "MIME Type Registrations for 3GPP Multimedia Files". Our problem in this example is further illustrated by the observation that, if it is an abbreviation, we can't figure out what the abbreviation is. It is "Third Generation Partnership Project" in RFC 3314 and 3589, "3rd-Generation Partnership Project" in RFC 3445, treated as a name in RFC 3574, and apparently "3rd Generation Partnership Project" in the most recent case. Perhaps the inability of experts to agree on what the "abbreviation" stands for is further evidence that it has become a word. Again, am I the only one who is bothered by this? And, if not, can we ask the IESG to think a bit about this matter going forward? thanks, john _______________________________________________ Ietf@xxxxxxxx https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf