It is perhaps worth noting that "shouting down" is precisely what would motivate a PR-action. That's not the behavior we want in the IETF. So anyone using whatever power they have to "shout down" any other IETF participant is prima facie subject to a PR action. That's the whole /point/ of PR actions. "Does not suffer fools gladly" is another attitude that I would think would tend to produce behavior that would be subject to a PR action. Working together to reach consensus requires patience, not "not suffering fools gladly." Because everybody sounds like a fool when they disagree with you, until you soften a bit and try to hear whatever criticism or input they have offered. That's just our inherent cognitive bias: "whatever seems right to me is right until strong evidence is seen that contradicts it." Learning to allow that evidence in is a skill, and one that we should all try to cultivate.
On Thu, Oct 6, 2022 at 12:18 PM Bless, Roland (TM) <roland.bless@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Kjetil,
On 06.10.22 at 17:17 Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote:
> On Thu, 2022-10-06 at 16:51 +0200, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote:
>> First of all, expressing racism is not the same thing as expressing an
>> "unpopular opinion". Racism is simply not tolerable and I see that the
>> leadership has an obligation to act upon that, therefore it is not about
>> suppressing opinions that IETF leadership does not like.
>
> Agreed.
>
>> Second, even if
>> we leave racism aside, it is clear from Dan's postings that he is
>> discriminating against people of groups that the IETF should not
>> exclude (and human dignity is non-negotiable).
>
> Can you give me any examples of this? So far no one has been able to
> provide links to messages where Dan has expressed racist or
> discriminatory views, so I would be very interested to see.
Really?
For example, here:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/terminology/jLTLVzGY-OhGZNn8LB36_DVdN6M/
He is ridiculing and humiliating groups by stating that "Where identity
groups can compound their power with the intersection of their venn
diagram of group identity. A trans black activist would have more
"authenticity", more ability to shout down Dave Chappelle than a white
trans activist and both of them would have more power than some cis
white male trying to shout down Dave Chappelle."..."The goal is to be in
as many identity groups as possible. They highlight their group identity
intersection because it _increases_ their place on the hierarchy!"
Embracing diversity and inclusion of group members is obviously about
participation and respect and not about increasing their power over
others and people do not/cannot change their identities or orientations
in order to to that.
>> His ridiculing and
>> belittling postings show a clear lack of respect for individuals of
>> these groups and it is unprofessional if the community repeatedly
>> requested to stop that behavior, but he nevertheless still continues.
>
> It seems to me Dan Harkins does not always suffer fools lightly (I hope
> that is the correct idiom), but he doesn't discriminate against
> "individuals of groups", but against "individuals".
Sorry, I do not understand what you are trying to say.
Regards,
Roland
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