Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 12:33 AM
To: Ackermann, Michael
Cc: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A; Eliot Lear; Peter Gutmann; STARK, BARBARA H; Watson Ladd; draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@xxxxxxxx; last-call@xxxxxxxx; tls-chairs@xxxxxxxx; tls@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
Deborah
Thanks so much for your informative and positive message.
I have not followed the OPs area too much, but will make an effort to do so now. Any specific drafts you might suggest, I will review. In particular, I am interested in what specific IPv6 document from the OPs area you refer too?
I took a look at the ISOC IPv6 doc you listed. Interesting but it appears to be quite old. Do you feel it is still relevant? Enterprises need a lot of info on IPv6 and I want to point them in the most effective directions.
By increasing visibility, do you mean ways to get Enterprises more involved or aware of IETF? I can sadly say none that have yet been effective, but I do intend to keep trying. Perhaps you have ideas?
And finally, I checked out your Pragmatic Link. Still laughing, even though it unfortunately seems to have very little relevance to my world 😊
Once again I really appreciate your constructive comments and information.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 5:10 PM
To: STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@xxxxxxx>; 'Watson Ladd' <watsonbladd@xxxxxxxxx>; Ackermann, Michael <MAckermann@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: 'Peter Gutmann' <pgut001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 'Eliot Lear' <lear=40cisco.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 'last-call@xxxxxxxx' <last-call@xxxxxxxx>; 'tls-chairs@xxxxxxxx' <tls-chairs@xxxxxxxx>; 'draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@xxxxxxxx' <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@xxxxxxxx>; 'tls@xxxxxxxx' <tls@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [Last-Call] [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
[External email]
As Barbara builds her confidence for the IETF list and while we have Mike's attention-
Mike, you commented "More, it is a lack of understanding of how things work within Enterprise Networks and the lack of Enterprise engagement in Standards Development processes. And finally, this may not be a gap that the IETF should care about or address, but someone should, IMHO."
I wanted to +1 on to Barbara's message - many of us will say - "we do care". As IETF is "huge" (for many operators/users that is the biggest bottleneck on participating), not sure if you follow the ops area (I'm a routing AD, but ops always has my attention😊), they have several documents on enterprises. Currently a document on the impact of TLS1.3 on operational network security practices. They also have an IPv6 one. I think in all the Areas (I know best the routing area), we encourage operators and users to participate. If you have suggestions - we are interested.
How to increase visibility? Do you have suggestions? Liaisons? ISOC? When RFC7381 (Enterprise IPv6) was done, it was an ISOC blog:
https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2014/10/new-rfc-7381-enterprise-ipv6-deployment-guidelines/
Possibly this draft should be a blog? Suggestions?
Thanks again for the interesting thread- Deborah for some humor - I'm still stumbling on the draft's requirement "Pragmatically, clients MUST NOT send". I'm not sure operationally how to ensure pragmatic client behavior - maybe a "pragmatic client" profile😊 I'll save that question for my ballot comment. And of course a google of pragmatic is very entertaining:
-----Original Message-----
From: last-call <last-call-bounces@xxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of STARK, BARBARA H
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:03 PM
To: 'Watson Ladd' <watsonbladd@xxxxxxxxx>; 'Ackermann, Michael' <MAckermann@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: 'Peter Gutmann' <pgut001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 'Eliot Lear' <lear=40cisco.com@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 'last-call@xxxxxxxx' <last-call@xxxxxxxx>; 'tls-chairs@xxxxxxxx' <tls-chairs@xxxxxxxx>; 'draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@xxxxxxxx' <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@xxxxxxxx>; 'tls@xxxxxxxx' <tls@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Last-Call] [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
Ow! Mike is my friend. Don't go dissing my friend!
I think the problem in communication we've just experienced is because Mike strayed away from Last Call discussion on a specific document, to asking/discussing a more general question of how IETF can better communicate with enterprises and perhaps even engage with enterprises to make it easier to operationalize protocols inside enterprise networks. I didn't see Mike suggesting any changes to the draft in Last Call, relevant to this question. ?
I'd like to suggest that maybe we could discuss this a little more on the ietf list? But not here.
I'll see what happens if I start a thread over there (ietf@xxxxxxxx) ...
Barbara
[Let me drum up my courage first. Thinking about posting to that list is much more stressful to me than, for example, thinking about bungie jumping off the Macau Tower -- an experience I highly recommend.]
> > Barbara,
> > Thanks.
> > And I think I was aware of all you state below regarding TLS, and
> > apologize
> for any related confusion regarding IPv6, even though, for the
> purposes of my comment, they are similar.
> >
> >
> > I don't disagree with anything you say on the TLS subject, which is
> essentially that prior versions of TLS may be considered insecure,
> etc. and should be deprecated.....
>
> Shouldn't we publish a document saying that? It seems this would
> represent consensus, even your view of the issue.
>
> >
> > My associated point is that Enterprises are generally not aware of
> > this and
> that it is not currently on our Planning or Budget Radars.
>
>
> TLS 1.2 has been around for how many years? All versions of OpenSSL
> without support have been EOL for some time. How many other CVE remain
> to be found in them? FIPS, PCI etc are all very clear that old TLS is
> going away. Browsers have supported TLS 1.2 for years. So has Windows.
> This depreciation should be easy given the extent of support for TLS
> 1.2.
>
> I bet that most services you run are already using TLS 1.2 or even 1.3
> because the client and server have been updated.
>
> > Further, this means we are potentially years from effectively and
> operationally addressing such issues.
>
> Let's be about it.
>
> > And we must do so in conjunction with Partners, Clouds, Clients
> > and
> others.
> > And my general, overall point is that the answer to addressing the
> > above is
> to find way(s) of making Enterprises aware and possibly assisting with
> methods of addressing. I think I also said this problem is not unique to TLS
> or IPv6. More, it is a lack of understanding of how things work within
> Enterprise Networks and the lack of Enterprise engagement in Standards
> Development processes.
> > And finally, this may not be a gap that the IETF should care about
> > or
> address, but someone should, IMHO.
>
> Your argument against the current text seems to be the following: we
> have a problem. It is inconvenient for me that you will ask me to deal
> with the problem. Therefore I would like the problem to not be
> acknowledged.
>
> Perhaps I am being too uncharitable. But I fail to see how softening
> the language eases depreciation, or what the consequence you fear
> happening are. You're free to continue ignoring the RFC series. But
> reality does not go away if it is ignored.
>
> Sincerely,
> Watson Ladd
>
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Mike
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