hello kevin, On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 12:39:23AM -0600, Kevin Myers wrote: > Hi Carol, > > I/we are already users and contributors to the ImageMagick and > GraphicsMagick projects as well as the GIMP. Both of those programs and the > GIMP have certain key strengths and weaknesses with respect to each other, > such that they are certainly not direct substitutes in *many* respects. > That was certainly the case with our previous need regarding command line > execution of a Gimp script under Windows. For another example, the GIMP can > handle the size of our larger image files under Windows, while IM and GM > still cannot. (IM and GM pixel representation in memory is always at least > 40 bit (8x5), while the GIMP allows 8 bit memory representation, allowing > roughly 5 times more pixels to be manipulated under Windows). > > It is utterly ridiculous that simply because I voiced concerns about and > would like for the ability to have gimp scripts execute properly from the > command line under Windows that you accuse me of "making the GIMP suck". > The suggestions that I offered earlier this evening were only thrown out for > consideration, and I didn't try to force those down anyone's throat. All > that I asked was that GIMP developers try to give adequate consideration to > the needs of Windows based gimp users rather than selecting an > implementation that I was worried might have an adverse impact. > > Some bias towards Linux and other Unix based systems is completely > understandable and acceptable to everyone. We all appreciate the > deficiencies of Windows and its poor record of adhering to standards (though > there are *many* similar examples in the *nix world as well). We also > appreciate that the Linux community is making the biggest share of > contributions to the GIMP development effort. > > What I don't appreciate, is your apparent lack of sympathy towards users who > have *no* choice but to run under Windows (for any of numerous reasons) and > who simply desire to use the gimp (just as you claim to), and to help > enhance it to meet *their* needs, just as you enhance it to meet your own > needs under Linux. The gimp is an open source product, and is also > supported and developed by Windows users, not just *nix heads. So what > gives you the right to presume that only *nix developers can own and control > the GIMP (as your comments seem to imply), and to ignore the needs of > Windows based users and the feedback and proposals of Windows based > contributors? > > Your statements seem to imply that any user or organization who doesn't like > the lack of certain GIMP features under Windows can just switch right over > to Linux at a moments notice, and that simply is NOT the case in many > situations. For example, in our own situation, we use several extremely > complex, industry specific technical applications that simply do not exist > for Linux. Other programs that we use do have Linux counterparts, but would > require numerous man years of retraining, redevelopment of supporting > applications, and data conversion in order to switch over, and many are > *very* expensive applications that are *not* public domain, even under > Linux, which we cannot afford to replace. Also, we can't afford a bunch of > duplicate hardware to run both operating systems in parallel, nor can our > work flows stand the wasted time of constantly rebooting to switch between > applications running under the different operating systems. From an > ideological standpoint, we would *love* to switch to Linux, immediately!!! > >From a practicality and expense standpoint, we just can't do it, and there > are many other folks in exactly the same boat. To presume otherwise is to > assume that you know everyone else's business better than they do, and I > guarantee that you do NOT. > > Our view seems to be quite different from yours. We believe that Windows > based GIMP users should be able to make contributions (which BTW include > comments and suggestions) that allow the gimp to work as effectively for us > under Windows as it does for other folks under Linux, and *of course* at the > same time not to do anything that would adversely impact Linux users. > Apparently there are lots of other gimp users and contributors who feel the > same way as we do. What doesn't seem right is that *some* Linux based > developers don't seem to have any problem implementing features in such a > way that it precludes effective use under Windows when it doesn't need to, > or reject proposed development efforts by others that would benefit Windows > users simply because there is no perceived benefit to the *nix community. > > I'm not saying at all that has happened in this specific instance regarding > the issues that I raised earlier this evening and the subsequent discussion. > What I am saying Carol, is that some of you appear to be having a rather > knee jerk reaction against someone else who is merely trying to help the > GIMP better support the operating system that they are using, no different > than anyone else who might happen to be using some other OS. If the > approach that I suggested won't work or will cause real problems under > another OS, that's fine. But what isn't fine is to say in essence "we don't > care about Windows users and contributors, and we're not going to listen to > their input", which is basically what I got out of your reply. > > s/KAM > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Carol Spears" <carol@xxxxxxxx> > To: "Kevin Myers" <KevinMyers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "GIMPDev" > <gimp-developer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 11:17 PM > Subject: Re: PDB named and default parameters (was Re: [Gimp-developer] The > Mark Shuttleworth offer) > > > > On Fri, Mar 19, 2004 at 09:26:23PM -0600, Kevin Myers wrote: > > > > > > Admittedly, the Windows command prompt (not simply Explorer) is less > capable > > > than most *nix command shells. However, there are also a very large > number > > > of Windows based GIMP users, and one of the requirements of GIMP 2.x is > that > > > it should be as usable under Windows as it is on other operating > systems. > > > I'm not familiar with R5RS, and you could certainly be right in your > opinion > > > regarding that. However, as a Windows GIMP user (and much more rarely a > > > GIMP bug, patch, fix, and enhancement contributor), I want to make sure > that > > > there isn't excessive *nix bias that inhibits or ignores usability needs > > > under Windows. > > > > > TheGIMP only exists for Windows(TM) because at the time, linux and > > scanners were not working so well together. The GNU/Linux bias is a > > fact. It is the only reason it exists. > > > > > For example, in one past case, I wanted to run a simple GIMP script from > the > > > Windows command shell, and there wasn't one single person (Sven and > everyone > > > else included), who was able to tell me how to arrange the quoting to > get > > > the script to run along with the required parameters. That level of > > > disfunctionality is not acceptable, and should be eliminated, even if it > > > means doing something like "abandoning" (or modifying) certain *nix > based > > > standards for the Windows version of the GIMP. > > > > > To avoid problems like this, linux developers are fairly good at > > following standards and all sorts of acronyms like api's and rtfm's -- > > there are more, i cannot remember them. > > > > Writing web pages for internet explorer is very limiting and not fun as > > they have not adhered to browser standards. Are you making TheGIMP suck > > like this? > > > > > Obviously though, I do realize the strong need to minimize any such > > > Windows-specific behavior, and that any such differences should receive > a > > > great deal of very careful consideration before implementation. In the > past > > > however, I feel that the scale may have been tipped slightly too far > against > > > Windows on such issues. > > > > > GNU/Linux is supporting scanners really well now. Perhaps you might be > > more interested in helping the Image Magick project as they have been > > running better from the command linue than from the GUI for years. It > > is available on Windows(TM) also. > > > > carol > > did you read this whole thing? carol
