vim's better! Sorry, wrong thread. Clair ;) On Saturday 22 April 2006 15:26, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 12:46 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > > Excuse me? > > This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate. > > Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors. > > From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE, > > Rahul, here on the Fedora Board, > > The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife) > > Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac > > was pried from his hands) > > Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat > > bangalore offices) > > Sankarshan > > Runa B > > Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu, > > and I could go on for a while > > This comment is simply racist. > > That's because you took it wrong and didn't pay attention to the fact I > was talking about _major_ H1B Visa and outsourcing abusers like Diebold, > IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... when it comes to _commercial_ > software or in-house software development. > > Understand *I* have worked with _many_ foreign nationals on _many_ > engineering projects. In fact, I've often been a "minority native-born > American" on them and that was just fine by me! Immigrants make the > United States -- something Americans don't realize. They have been > _experts_ and, in many cases, _uniquely_qualified_. This _includes_ > many _outstanding_ open source project originators and maintainers. > > But the problem right now in the US is that we keep importing the _crap_ > of the world on 90% of our H1B Visas and while letting the "lowest > foreign bidder" develop software, 90% who are typically _not_ qualified. > > My points are ... > > A. In the open source world, the software is produced by qualified > people. These people typically have a passion for their development, > and they excel at it. They can be _any_ nationality, and many are _not_ > Americans. You get the _best_ the _world_ has to offer. > > B. In the commercial software world, the software is produced by > commercial funding of "the lowest price." In these cases, many > _unqualified_ Indian, Irish, Israeli and other firms are tapped -- or > H1B Visas granted to bring such _unqualified_ individual in because of > the costs. You get the _lowest_price_ the _world_ has to offer. > > C. I have personally seen this first-hand in a half-dozen Fortune 100 > companies. I have written both requirements for outsourced software as > well as managed H1B Visa workers. In a couple of cases, they wanted to > (and sometimes did) send me or someone I worked with to a foreign nation > to supervise these developers. In 90% of the cases, they were _not_ > remotely qualified -- and it was a pure cost game, one that was > impossible to deal with. > > But American companies don't care, and that's why we get the crap in > commercial software! > > So *WHY* would you *PAY* for *COMMERCIAL* software that is the "lowest > price the world has to offer" when you can get *OPEN*SOURCE* software > designed by "the best the world has to offer"? > > That's why Open Source is _better_! > > D. The IEEE has been trying to get the stupid "pro-protectionalim v. > pro-immigration" non-sense to stop, because _both_ sides are _wrong_! > H1B Visas are basically indentured servitude. Green Cards are not. If > you give an immigrant a Green Card, they aren't under the thumb of a > sponsoring company, but free to take whatever job they want. This not > only means they won't be underpaid, unlike in the H1B Visa system, but > it also means we aren't letting corporations import _crap_ merely > because of price. Linus Torvalds is one of the IEEE's Poster Children > on this -- he was given a H1B Visa when he was _unqiuely_qualified_ and > should have been given a Green Card. Miguel deIcaza is another. > > As a responsible American, I _welcome_ both world competition and > immigration. But right now, America is _shooting_ itself in the foot by > allowing its companies to import unqualified slaves under H1B Visas and > outsourcing to companies who clearly are _not_ qualified to do many > software developments. That's why the crap we get from IBM, Microsoft > and many others is junk. It's why Diebold, State Farm and other > financial companies are putting in _horrendous_ security nightmares into > our financial systems. It's why Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and other firms > have major development issues (even if Americans with Security > Clearances design the products, some of the IT/software they use is more > H1B Visa and outsourced "lowest price" non-sense). > > > I hope you see my point now. I, as well as the IEEE, typically get > caught in the cross-fire between "protectionalism" and "immigration." > H1B Visa are _not_ immigration. They do _not_ allow America to become > better by allowing the best of the world to immigrate. And outsourcing > is being done irresponsibly in 90% of cases. I have argued where > oursourcing does and doesn't work, just like I argued where COTS usage > at NASA does and doesn't work in the '90s. You can't save on > everything! > > But that all does _not_ matter when it comes to community developed > software! You get the _best_ of the world! People who want to work on > software. People who _know_ their field! Not merely someone who is > paid, or in 90% of cases, _overstates_ what their company can do for the > "lowest price." Sorry, that's what I see from 90% of the Indian, Irish > and Israeli firms and H1B Visa workers I've worked with and saved their > asses on. That's the commercial software world in the US for you right > now. > > It's that other 10%, the ones that are actually worth more, that get the > shaft. Luckily they make up the bulk of open source software > development. The best the world has to offer. -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
