On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Chris Snook <csnook@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 08:58:09PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote: >>> >>> Jesse Keating wrote: >>>> >>>> Back in December, I had made a change that blocked kernel-devel packages >>>> from winding up in the install media for the Fedora spin. I don't >>>> recall getting any push back at the time, but I've gotten at least one >>>> angry comment since then. So I'm putting it out for more discussion. >>>> Do we feel that the kernel-devel (5~megs) should be in the install >>>> media? >>> >>> Yes please. There's always new hardware we don't support yet, so some >>> people will need to build drivers just to get online and access the repos. >>> If we ship it on the install media, it's much easier to distribute code >>> that you're reasonably confident will work on a new install. If people have >>> to hunt down matching kernel and kernel-devel rpms, it's a moving target for >>> people working on these device drivers. >>> >>> I'm not saying we should bend over backwards for out-of-tree drivers, but >>> this is precisely the scenario that determines the first impression for >>> someone trying this "Linux" thing on their shiny new bleeding-edge box, and >>> it's pretty easy to accomodate. >> >> Erm... if this is the first time someone is trying a shiny new "Linux" >> thing >> on a bleeding edge box, and they have to grab a kernel-devel package and >> build drivers _themselves_, then they are obviously smart enough to run >> 'yum install kernel-devel'. Somehow I think your example is slightly off. >> I don't know many Linux newbies that know 1) that they need to build a >> driver, 2) what driver to build, and 3) what packages they need to build >> it >> all without knowing how to install anything. >> >> <jedi> >> These are not the people you are targeting. They know enough to not >> require >> kernel-devel on the install media. You can move on to finding some other >> use case that makes sense. >> </jedi> >> >> josh >> > > How are they going to 'yum install kernel-devel' with no internet > connection? And how does the maintainer of the not-yet-merged driver ensure > that his code always works with whatever kernel Fedora has rebased to today? > If you can be reasonably confident that every Fedora 10 user can at least > get a certain matching kernel and kernel-devel, it's a lot easier to > maintain drivers. In theory you could build packages, but when you're doing > this for Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, etc. it isn't really feasible. > > I know this is a niche use case, but it's a very large niche, and it's the > niche that's most likely to become avid Linux users if we don't push them > away the first time. I know because I had this experience when I first > started maintaining the atl2 network driver. Tens of thousands of EeePC > users, many of them technically savvy but Linux novices, wanted to replace > the hacked up Xandros that ships on the Eee with something a bit more > flexible, but they needed atl2 to make it work, and it wasn't merged in the > distros yet. When fast-moving distros like Fedora rebased their kernels to > 2.6.24, my code broke, but the users who had kernel-devel or equivalent on > their install media were fine, while the others either had to dig around to > find a matching kernel and development headers, since only the latest were > in the repos, or wait for me to fix it. > > The situation is much worse in the wireless world, where many of the drivers > are reverse engineered and break on every new hardware rev, forcing users to > install experimental stuff that isn't ready for merging in order to get > their shiny new laptop online. > > I'm not saying that kernel-devel is an absolutely critical package to have > on the install media, but it's extremely convenient at a time when users are > most frustrated. If we're going to trim the install media, which I'm not > fundamentally opposed to, there are much more frivolous things that should > go first. > > -- Chris > > -- > fedora-devel-list mailing list > fedora-devel-list@xxxxxxxxxx > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list > +1 This package is extremely useful and would help a lot of users if it was on the install media (too bad that Live CD has no space for it also). Cheers, Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic -- fedora-devel-list mailing list fedora-devel-list@xxxxxxxxxx https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-devel-list
