On Wed, Jan 22, 2025 at 09:51:28AM +0000, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: > While the ring idea as presented there didn't come to exist inside > Fedora as a community, I think we can see that concept has indeed > grown up outside Fedora. Yes, 100%. This was already happening when I made the Rings proposal back in 2013. Fedora has always been a project that cares about more than just the core — literally so, with Core/Extras and then the merge of those. The Rings proposal was intended to keep us relevant at the higher layers too. > An increasingly large part of the ecosystem is working and deploying > a way that Fedora (and derivative distros) are relegated to only > delivering what's illustrated as Ring 1. This is especially the case > in the CoreOS/SilverBlue spins, but we see it in traditional installs > too which only install enough of Fedora to bootstrap the outside > world. Meanwhile ring 2 is the space filled by either language specific > tools (pip, cargo, rubygems, etc), and some docker container images, > while ring 3 is the space filled by Flatpaks and further docker > container images. Fedora meanwhile continues trying to package and > deliver everything the same way as we did for decades, as if this > shift were not happening. Again, yes, 100%. > What's disappointing is that as end users are adopting use of things > from Ring's 2 & 3, they are loosing the potential benefits Fedora's > more direct involvement would have enabled. I am subscribed to your newsletter. At this point, I think the fundamental question is: is it too late? Not with Rings, necessarily — can we provide these benefits in _any_ meaningful way? For end users? For developers building on Fedora Linux? Or viewing it another way: for applications? For development environments? If we have the _internal_ ability, do we have a meaningful chance to effect outside change — if we build it, will they come? Are we _currently_ providing meaningful benefit by building end-user applications that are available directly from their upstreams in Flathub, or via Docker images? What do we gain from building, say, Inkscape ourselves — other than allowing us to check the boxes of our own rules? Is it worthwhile to try to package Home Assistant? And, not, like, quixotically worthwhile — what impact does it have? If we stopped doing these things, what would it make room for? -- Matthew Miller <mattdm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Fedora Project Leader -- _______________________________________________ devel mailing list -- devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe send an email to devel-leave@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
